Alizée in English

[Drake498]

As far as I know, Alizée is somewhat fluent in English...:confused: please correct me if I am wrong?

[MiamMiam]

I don't believe that she is, all we know is that she was taking English lessons for her MCE album.

[Drake498]

Yeah thats what I had heard... but had she persued it as another language?

[MiamMiam]

Like I said, all we know is that she was taking English lessons....we don't know anything else.

[Zack -Alizee Lover-]

I don't believe that she is, all we know is that she was taking English lessons for her MEC album.

MEC must be her next record? Miammiam are you Alizée?:eek:

And no, we dont know for sure if she is fluent in english or not. The other language she might learn must be spanish cuze of spain.

[Cooney]

I doubt Alizée is fluent, but she speaks it well enough, I think - probably better than I speak French ::grins:: From such recordings as we have of her later in her career, she can pronounce it quite well for songs, but has a distinct accent and some hesitation in conversational use (not a lot of material to go by, but from what I've seen...)

I imagine she is confidant enough to travel with it, as she did come get married in the states and all that, and I doubt she brought her entourage with her for that like she would have had in England for her performances there.

She stopped taking the formal correspondance lessons at age 16 or 17, and unless she started lessons again more recently, I wouldn't be surprised if that's the last classroom use she had, relying on practical application since then.

[jeroh]

MEC must be her next record? Miammiam are you Alizée?:eek:

And no, we dont know for sure if she is fluent in english or not. The other language she might learn must be spanish cuze of spain.


he tried to say : MCE ? = Mes Courant Electriques?

[MiamMiam]

he tried to say : MCE ? = Mes Courant Electriques?

I'm a girl FYI :)

[Rocket]

I'm a girl FYI :)

YOU ARE?? That is awesome! Not enough of us girls in here. Me, Amelie and Topaz amoung others welcome you. :wub:

[painbringer]

Be awesome if she can sing in english. Good way for her to cross-over to US market. Like Shakira and such.

[jeroh]

I'm a girl FYI :)

my bad :P , sorry ^^

[Oh_Snap!]

I imagine she is confidant enough to travel with it, as she did come get married in the states and all that,

I think I read somewhere that Jeremy speaks good English, although I don't know for sure.

[chelsey]

well i thought that she spoke english...??..guess not

[Machzero]

I would be glad to teach any English she would like. I know I don't comment on here too much but I do read as many forums that I can and think that everyone here has great English. Keep up the good work everybody. You all are doing great. Alizee, you have my number...give me a call and I'll translate. love ya, miss ya, bye.


wishful think on the last few lines, so I figured why now :)

[RMJ]

Jérémy speaks English. Alizée speaks at least little. Maybe enough to have conversation nowadays. It's quite possible that she has learned it during the years and with Jérémy's help even gotten better.

But I really doubt she'd be fluent or even close to it.

[aditya8617]

MEC must be her next record? Miammiam are you Alizée?:eek:

And no, we dont know for sure if she is fluent in english or not. The other language she might learn must be spanish cuze of spain.

Is there no logic department in your brains!

I think Alizee can speak enough english to atleast converse for 5 mins with us.

[Roman]

Be awesome if she can sing in english. Good way for her to cross-over to US market. Like Shakira and such.
Well, as others have said, I have heard Alizée sing in English in late performances and she sounded very good to me. I know one could probably learn that from just practicing those specific words, but if she continued even a modest/occasional study of English, by now I think she can probably speak it well enough for simple discussions, at least.
I always assume that she could pretty much read and understand anything on this web site. Well, as well as most of the rest of us can understand it. The grammar and spelling of you people is better than general comments on YouTube or MetaCafe or the like. Maybe because you care more? or are just older and better educated?

[atra201]

I have an Idea let's all talk in English and see if Alizee will respond then we will know.

[Deepwaters]

She sings quite well in English, and her accent is adorable. :)

I do think she could use better English lyrics-writers, though, if she wants to do any more of that.

[RMJ]

Singing and speaking is two totally different things.

Anyone can sing in any language. You just need to know how to pronounce the words in the song. You don't have to understand one single bit of it.

So, hearing someone to sing in some language, doesn't mean one can really speak that language.

[Deepwaters]

RMJ, in an interview, Alizée pretty heavily put down singing in a language one doesn't understand, and said she was taking English lessons so she would be able to sing in English. I think we can depend on it that she understands the lyrics of any song she sings in English.

If she's like most people, she can probably understand more spoken or written English than she can speak. I'm definitely that way with French. I'm getting to the point where I can often follow Alizée's French lyrics and interviews, but I can't trust myself yet to put words together in French from a cold start. ;)

Her English is no doubt better than my French. How much better is guesswork.

[DesertFox]

I think she should sing in French ALWAYS...but i admire her more for her interest in singing in other languages. A+.

Thanks. I need water...

[Cooney]

I think a very big, important part of speaking a new language is being in an environment where you're not worried that the other person will take offense or poke fun at you. Basically, having the confidence to use it without worrying about your mistakes.

I run in to that with French myself. I have no worries speaking French with my friends, or to other Americans at work, but when I find myself face to face with a French person, I can feel my heart speed up, I forget words, and I'm a bit intimidated. I've been working on not having that happen whenever I get the chance, slowing my speech and making a point of looking them in the eye, but it still makes me nervous.

I wouldn't be surprised if Alizée would have a similar reaction (it seems fairly widespread). If she was talking with a fellow Frenchman in English for some reason, she probably wouldn't have too many issues, but when you put the cameras on her she might hesitate a bit.

I dunno... probably it's because when we're with friends, we don't care about making little mistakes, and we figure if the other person isn't a native speaker, maybe they'd make that mistake too. The fact is, and what I've been trying to get through my head, is that even with those mistakes, you're probably quite understandable the majority of the time!

[brad]

She probably could get by pretty good with her English, but I doubt she would be able to follow all of the threads on a forum like ours. You never know though, I would be really impressed if she was on the same level as aFrenchie.

I would think she has been pretty busy with other things, like her daughter for example. That doesn't leave a lot of time to become fluent in another language.

That said, she is probably exposed to English a lot more than say an average American would be exposed to French. Like movies and other things. One thing is for sure, her English is way better than my French :D

[SupaKrupa]

We know nothing of her past 3 years except she's married, had a child and has been working on an album. Who knows, maybe the entire family chose to take up english? Baby Anny-Lee may be bilingual for all we know! In any case, knowing lots of languages is a good thing! Let's hope she's decided to learn English as well, for all of our sakes :D

[brad]

Maybe the delay with the album is because Jeremy decided to write Lili some English songs for all of us English speaking fans :p

Even though I like the French versions of her songs better, I really love to her her sing / speak in English. She sounds so sweet ...

[Drake498]

Singing and speaking is two totally different things.

Anyone can sing in any language. You just need to know how to pronounce the words in the song. You don't have to understand one single bit of it.

So, hearing someone to sing in some language, doesn't mean one can really speak that language.

I think we can depend on it that she understands the lyrics of any song she sings in English.

Her English is no doubt better than my French. How much better is guesswork.

RMJ, altough that is essentially true, its also true that Alizée was taking english classes, and as Deepwaters said, I'm am extremely confident that she knows the differences in translation between the English and French versions of her songs

And yes... her English is much better then my French... damn I need to work on it

[Deepwaters]

Even though I like the French versions of her songs better, I really love to her her sing / speak in English. She sounds so sweet ...

Agreed, but as I said, she needs new English lyrics writers. If you really want to hear what she can do with a song in English and don't want to be distracted by the bad lyrics, check out her cover of Madonna's "La Isla Bonita." Very, very good!

Well, OK, to be fair, the English version of Youpidoo isn't bad. I like the wordplay with the numbers and the names of the week days. But "I'm Fed Up" is just -- I'm sorry, it's just terrible.

"Legs up for hours"? Huh? Sounds like she's going through a really unpleasant gynecological procedure. "My goldfish is under me"? Sounds like she's sitting on the poor thing and squashing it.

Right idea in that nobody tried to do a literal translation of either song, but poor execution in the case of "I'm Fed Up." Made worse because I like the lyrics of the French song a lot, which does a very nice transition from the insulated, luxurious bubble-bath-with-fish world into everything that annoys her and from which she retreats into said world, via the line about the shadow of bombs.

In any language, though, she sings beautifully. Maybe if I didn't understand English . . .

[Krey317]

But "I'm Fed Up" is just -- I'm sorry, it's just terrible.

"Legs up for hours"? Huh? Sounds like she's going through a really unpleasant gynecological procedure. "My goldfish is under me"? Sounds like she's sitting on the poor thing and squashing it.

lmao dude i agree i always thought her other english translation songs were ok, although amelie is sketchy at points. but i'm fed up is simply gibberish. But hopefully, she might know enough english to write her own lyrics, maybe for some songs sung in english first. she is capable of doing the language justice, i think if she practices english enough.

[MiamMiam]

lmao dude i agree i always thought her other english translation songs were ok, although amelie is sketchy at points. but i'm fed up is simply gibberish. But hopefully, she might know enough english to write her own lyrics, maybe for some songs sung in english first. she is capable of doing the language justice, i think if she practices english enough.

Eh I think half of it is that the subject and lyrics of her songs in French can't be translated into English with it sounding like it does in French, and not only that...normally the subject matters and the play on words isn't something one normally hears in English pop songs. We're just not used to having songs translated and not only that, it's really hard to convey the same meaning while fitting it to the song. So no I don't think "I'm Fed Up" sounds completley ridiculous, it just doesn't work in English, they tried their hardest probably under a time constraint. If you don't like the song, don't listen to it imo.

[Deepwaters]

Here, I just had to do this. To show it could be done:

My world has no troubles,
Here under the bubbles,
Carressing my skin silkily.
My goldfish, he loves me,
Swimming here with me,
He tickles me under my knee.

No cares or troubles, just lazin' round,
Wrapped up in bubbles, sweet splashing sound,
Keeping it simple, it's hard to do,
But that's my secret for getting through.

I shut out my troubles,
Here under the bubbles,
Nothing that's bad can find me.
My bath takes forever,
In watery pleasure,
But I've got a list, oh, you see --
Of what gets to me:

I'm fed up with this damned rain,
People whose driving's a pain,
Can't think outside of a box
Predictable as a clock.
Hypocrites and fanatics,
And my sister's dramatics.
Don't get me started on zukes,
They make me swell up and puke.
I'm fed up with being made
To jump through hoops every day.
Fed up with being fed up -- that too!

[Hubba44]

Very well done. That is MUCH better. Now get her to sing it!

[Deepwaters]

Thanks. But the French song is still better, I think.

[Krey317]

deepwaters got it good. good job man. btw, miammiam. im not really trying to bash on the song. im just trying to poke fun at the translation. i mean, i wouldnt want it any other way, really, because you know, its alizee, its the way it is.

[Hubba44]

Thanks. But the French song is still better, I think.

Don't get me wrong, I prefer the French versions of the four songs she also recorded in English, just saying, your lyrics are very good.

[RadioactiveMan]

"I'm Fed Up" might have really bad lyrics, but it still tops anything on the radio.

[CFHollister]

Of the four English versions, while I prefer the French versions of each, I really think Amélie is the best. I'm Fed Up and I'm not 20 are both ok. While I don't like listening to Youpidoo, but that is more for personal extenuating circumstances.

[RMJ]

RMJ, altough that is essentially true, its also true that Alizée was taking english classes,
Trouble reading ?

Didn't I say that she knows English ? At least some English. Especially now when she is married to guy who knows it well enough.



I wasn't talking about her. It was general note what I said about singing and speaking in some language. Since some people tends to believe singing in English automaticly means one knows the language.

[SupaKrupa]

Hmmm... I've either got a bad case of dejavu or we've had this discussion before...

[rcs]

I don't think anybody searches for new posts. We just keep going round and round. LOL :p

[Roman]

..."La Isla Bonita." Very, very good!
...
"Legs up for hours"? Huh? ..."My goldfish is under me"?...
"La Isla Bonita"! Yes, I think that's what I was thinking of that she sings very well in English.
As for "legs...", feet up? Does that make more sense? I've been sitting around the house with my feet/legs up. I'm lounging. That makes sense. Ok, it did take me a while to figure that out, but still. "My goldfish...", yeah, I'm still not really sure what that's supposed to mean unless it is a more direct referrence to the intended "frisson" that someone suggested was being implied, in which case it is both cryptic and lacks the subtlety that made it somewhat better in the French version. I'm thinking the whole idea there just didn't come across that well. Other than that, what's the big deal with the lyrics anyway, eh? Maybe they're not as good in the English version, but it still sounds good and is still catchy. In fact, it's interesting how with both songs she seems to ignore the meaning of the words anyway and sings it in a very sexy manner regardless of what she's saying. That song is hard to stop talking about.
Yes, sometimes I think it might be better that I don't understand what she's saying because if it is kind of silly and/or too frivolous or teeny bop pop, then maybe I wouldn't like it as much. So, that goes to show that the lyrics are quite often not nearly as important as just the sound of the song. A song does become great if the singing/music/lyrics are all really good. I do appreciate some of the songs more after reading a translation; so, pluses and minuses. One thing that is certain is Alizée is a great singer I love in any case; so I'm not overly concerned about the meanings.

[Roman]

Here, I just had to do this. To show it could be done:

Sweet! Alright, you rock. That is, the lyrics are pretty good and just imagine if Alizée were singing it. That, of course, makes all the difference in the world. Hey, maybe you should send an email and offer your services in English lyrical review. Really, all they need to do with a translation is make it get the general idea across and not sound quirky. Though, I'm guessing that some of the changes in the lyrics (like the thing about her uncle) were an attempt to also tailor the song to Alizée with her own thoughts that they just didn't happen to include in the original Why else would they choose such lyrics? But, you did a good job showing that if you just change some of the language, you can still say the same thing and make it rhym, though could you keep the same "meter" with those lyrics to go with the music which did not change at all?

[Deepwaters]

Roman:

If I were to assist with the lyrics in English, it would have to involve more than just reviewing, and it would have to be a very different process than what I did with IFU there, and also I'd need to spend a bit more time on it. That was just whacked out in a few minutes.

I would need to have the music, of course, and I would also need to get considerable feedback from Alizée herself as to how the music made her feel, and what she wanted the song to say; most likely she'd need to express this in French, which means for me to understand it she'd probably need to write it down, at least until I get more practice with the language. Of course I could be underestimating her fluency in English, as has been pointed out several times on this thread, we just don't know.

Then I could make a first draft, run it by her and others on the team, get feedback, make changes, and so on back and forth until everyone's satisfied. Which I imagine is how they do things with her French lyrics, too.

Whether all of that could be done remotely I really don't know. Of course I would be BEYOND thrilled to be asked to do that, but let's be clear it would be a lot of work, and it's not a simple decision on anyone's part.

Not meaning to dump cold water here, just trying to be realistic.

[RMJ]

"Legs up for hours"? Huh? Sounds like she's going through a really unpleasant gynecological procedure. "My goldfish is under me"? Sounds like she's sitting on the poor thing and squashing it.


As for "legs...", feet up? Does that make more sense? I've been sitting around the house with my feet/legs up. I'm lounging. That makes sense.

...

In fact, it's interesting how with both songs she seems to ignore the meaning of the words anyway and sings it in a very sexy manner regardless of what she's saying.

Do you guys understand (one of) the meaning(s) of the song ?

It makes very much sense to put her legs up on the rim of bath tube. It's likely to be very relaxing position, for some play with goldfish. And it's important for girls to relax during it, if they plans to have seismic tremors... y'a comme un hic...

If you don't understand the meaning, then look around. You can find it from every board.

[Deepwaters]

Do you guys understand (one of) the meaning(s) of the song ?


It took me a while to understand the meaning of the French song, but English is my native language and I understood that one instantly. I just didn't like it.


It makes very much sense to put her legs up on the rim of bath tube.


Sure, but the point is that that phrase is very clumsy English and doesn't communicate what was meant to communicate, namely the luxurious, insulated feel of retreating to a bubble-bath, which the French song definitely does. It's not that it didn't make sense, it's that it was the wrong way to say it.


It's likely to be very relaxing position, for some play with goldfish. And it's important for girls to relax during it, if they plans to have seismic tremors... y'a comme un hic...


Umm.

Yes, I can see that as a possible interpretation.:rolleyes:

However, I seriously doubt it was intended.

[OGRE]

Umm.

Yes, I can see that as a possible interpretation.:rolleyes:

However, I seriously doubt it was intended.

Remember who wrote these lyrics. Mylène Farmer wrote them. As I've noted in previous posts, and as several here understand, she (Mylène) is a master at the double entendre (double meaning) in the songs she writes. And most importantly, in many of Mylène's double entendres she likes one meaning to be innocent while the other one has...well....undertones that cannot be explicitly expressed in this forum.

Can I say without a doubt Mylène "intended" the meaning alluded to above? No. But given Mylèn's history with the double entendre, I would be more likely to say the second meaning was intentional and not accidental. The nice part about Mylène is you never know...for sure. And I think she likes it that way.

[Deepwaters]

Perhaps you're right, but it doesn't diminish my distaste for those lyrics. If anything, it intensifies it.

[Deepwaters]

Hey, maybe you should send an email and offer your services in English lyrical review.

Just occurred to me. Do we have a working email address?

[RMJ]

It took me a while to understand the meaning of the French song, but English is my native language and I understood that one instantly. I just didn't like it.
Language being native doesn't mean you understand song written in that language.

I have seen many French fans to surprise after finding out the concept of JEAM for example. Even tho they are all fluent in French, they don't all understand it without help.


Sure, but the point is that that phrase is very clumsy English and doesn't communicate what was meant to communicate, namely the luxurious,
And why not ? It's the first thing that comes to my mind. Have you ever lay on your back and lift your legs on something higher. It's very refreshing and relaxing.

If the phrase isn't the best possible English sentence (it's written by French woman after all, even if she knows very good English), it describes the action well enough.


It's not that it didn't make sense, it's that it was the wrong way to say it.

Wrong way to say what ?

Yes, I can see that as a possible interpretation.:rolleyes:

It's not just one way. It's most likely way.


However, I seriously doubt it was intended.
Then you don't know Mylène Farmer.

(not that I'm MF specialist either, but at least I'm aware of some of his ideas...)

[Deepwaters]

RMJ:

It really doesn't matter if what you're suggesting was the intended meaning of the song. The fact remains, those English lyrics suck swampwater. They clunk, they don't flow, they don't clearly suggest, not only that meaning but any other, and they are too obviously written by someone who may be fluent in the language but it's a foreigner's fluency, without nuance or real comprehension.

I see no possible defense of them, to be honest.

Edit: Actually, if what you're suggesting IS the song's intended meaning or undercurrent, that makes them worse. What's the significance of such a thing apart from being naughty for the sake of naughtiness? It's not even an appealing sort of naughtiness.

[OGRE]

Perhaps you're right, but it doesn't diminish my distaste for those lyrics. If anything, it intensifies it.

Embrace the female form in all its grace and beauty, in movement like an angel, both comforting and alluring. The celebration of life in art...in music...in song. The voice....the rhythm....the movement.....the chords....the lyrics....the meaning......enjoy it all. Its compelling nature is the root of our very exsitence. Without it, we cease to exist as a species. Yes, we should be tempered by moral concisousness. We are not mere animals. But we should not let a puritan moral conciousness blind and enslave us to a denial that breeds frustration, anger, and guilt. Want to fight millions of years of genetic tuning? Go ahead. Some see it as "bad". Other's see it as "art" (with appropriate levels of discretness). And I will say some can go too far. But in this case, I believe the level of discretness is sufficient that we should be celebrating the "art" and not get too wrapped up elsewhere.

But to each their own. Given the discreetness of the measure, there is no right or wrong when it comes one's personal likes or dislikes for these lyrics.

[Deepwaters]

Ogre:

I have no objection to the female form. That's not it at all. Alizée could be many times racier than she is, in lyrics, movement, facial expressions, everything, and I would have no problem with that. Unlike some on this board, it wouldn't be a problem for me if she did a nude video. I find her video for Gourmandises (for example) incredibly suggestive and sexy, and I love it. Sexuality is magnificent, and I personally believe that American society (in particular but not exclusively) has been since long before independence in the grip of a diseased puritanism from which we are only now, in my lifetime, starting to emerge into something healthy -- and we're still a long way from there.

It's not the sexuality. I just don't like:

1) Suggestions of sexuality that, while they do reject puritanism, are otherwise wholly unappealing, i.e. I would not myself want to engage in them (if I were equipped to do so that is) and if I observed them I would be disgusted rather than aroused; or

2) Mangling of the language of Shakespeare and Milton.

The English language is also magnificent. It, sexuality, and Alizée all deserve better.

[RMJ]

RMJ:

It really doesn't matter if what you're suggesting was the intended meaning of the song. The fact remains, those English lyrics suck swampwater. They clunk, they don't flow, they don't clearly suggest, not only that meaning but any other, and they are too obviously written by someone who may be fluent in the language but it's a foreigner's fluency, without nuance or real comprehension.

I see no possible defense of them, to be honest.

Edit: Actually, if what you're suggesting IS the song's intended meaning or undercurrent, that makes them worse. What's the significance of such a thing apart from being naughty for the sake of naughtiness? It's not even an appealing sort of naughtiness.
There's no need for suggesting anything. It's clearly seen in the lyrics. And especially clear it is because it's so related to JEAM. Even tho, they are not the same song, they have heavy bond in between them. They shares the same tub.


I find her video for Gourmandises (for example) incredibly suggestive and sexy, and I love it.
Maybe because it simply is her sexiest video ? I mean, everything in the video is about seducing. It's not a sub meaning even. I doubt there is anyone who doesn't find it sexual. Well, maybe little kids who don't understand what's really going on but everyone else surely gets the point. Even the lyrics of Gourmandises talks about sexuality.

[Deepwaters]

There's no need for suggesting anything. It's clearly seen in the lyrics.


Very well, substitute the appropriate term in place of "suggesting," and the point remains unchanged and unanswered. And the lyrics are still dreadful.


Maybe because it [Gourmandises] simply is her sexiest video ?


Indeed. But what I was getting at was that the eroticism in JEAM, and in Alizée's dance thereunto, isn't what bothers me about the English version (to which AFAIK she has never even performed that dance).

One thing that clearly needs to be done is to sever the concept of purity from the concept of virginity. With the possible exception of "Parler tout Bas," there is nothing virginal about any of Alizée's music but purity runs through it. In my opinion, she could be a lot more erotic (if she wants) and still not diminish that purity.

No, what bothers me most about "I'm fed up" is that it is not good writing. You've given me something else to be annoyed over, but nothing that changes the fact that it's STILL not good writing.

[RMJ]

But what I was getting at was that the eroticism in JEAM,
There's very little eroticism in it really. The masturbation is more lust than eroticism.

[CFHollister]

One thing that clearly needs to be done is to sever the concept of purity from the concept of virginity. With the possible exception of "Parler tout Bas," there is nothing virginal about any of Alizée's music but purity runs through it. In my opinion, she could be a lot more erotic (if she wants) and still not diminish that purity.

I agree very much.

[aditya8617]

Too many discussions on the same 'lyrics stuff' and they all end at the same point: Back to square one!

[Zack -Alizee Lover-]

I deleted this a few minutes ago, I'm not sure whether I should post it here or in the French vs. English thread. This seems like the better thread as it covers more ground. Sorry if you read it already...

Well being a student right now in cllege I have a distinct advantage of being able to study a foreign language. Alizee is French vs. Alizee in English? French wins easily.

French is a very aristocratic language and it always has been.Three languages are considered "romantic" (not what you think): Italian, Spanish, and French. Now my mother speaks Italian as my family is Italian, and I am studying Spanish. For me, both languages are a lot prettier and "romantic" (what you first thought) than English is. I plan to study French on my own this summer, and continue learning it for as long as it takes me to become fluent in it. I will be dropping Spanish (well not the class since i don't have to take it anymore) from my repitoire (sp).

English is a very interesting language in that regardless of which version of it you hear (American vs. British), you are not hearing a language with a singular background (vs. French, Italian, Spanish = Latin origin, also languages with Arabic, Greek, or Germanic origins). English was formed in present day Britian, yes. However the influences on the language were massively widespread. There are some influences from Germanic, Latin, and Arabic words. However a bulk of the language comes from the North, in Scandanavian countries (Norway, Vikings, Greenland, Iceland) as well as Celtic/Welsh nations like Ireland and Scotland. This would explain the heavy and vast differences in English dialect and accent (think Brad Pitt in "Snatch").

William Shakespeare had the largest inmpact on the English language in 2 ways...

1) He alone created (rather formed) words from different countries to make words. In other words, he created words by using prefixes and suffixes using words from (for example) Germanic and Arabic origins. In all, Shakespear CREATED TENS OF THOUSANDS of words for the English language!!!

2) Shakespear wrote in English. At the time, most of the aristocracy in England spoke in a Romantic language (Latin origin, usally French or Italian). Some spoke in Germanic, Arabic or Norse. That was the aristocracy. It is important to note that Shakespear's family was middle/lower class, aka working class. He chose to write in the language of the COMMON MAN, which happened to be English.


Naturally almost any two songs when compared, one in French and the other in English, the French one will sound better as it is a more bourgeosie and posh language, wheras English is more common... This is coming from someone who only 2 languages (good English and Bad English) and I am not very good at either of them.

The most important thing I think I could say here is that Alizee sounds good no matter what she is singing. I have explained why French would naturally sound better, but there are 2 other reasons why her English songs lack when compared to her French versions.

1) They were written in French, Alizee speaks French as her primary language. I know that even when reading from a SPanish book I feel awkward trying to READ a foreign language (though i have heard my accents are astonishing, hahahaha). So when she is recording, she would rather be singing French, not English.

2) They were written in French, hence the translations into English are not perfect. This screws up the song in 2 says. A) It throws off the speed/beat of the song and can throw it out of rythm. in some cases I am willing to bet they chopped apart sentences in English to make the song flow better, without even considering the damage it causes. B) Since the translations aren't pefect, the entire meaning behind the song can be misconstrued (sp). Especially for an American society that sells sex in almost every commerial or ad, such lyrics with personal (and perhaps sensua) meaning could be blown out of proportion... this has been demonstrated in this thread already.


*steps off soap box*

I dont think Spanish is romantic at all.
for me the most romantic languages are
1.French
2.Portuguese
3.Italian

[RMJ]

Don't mix romance with some romantic crap.

Like SupaKrupa said (but deleted his post for some reason :blink:) the reason why they are called romance languages is because they are derived from same mother language, Latin. And latin was official language of the Roman Empire. Hence the name for the language group, Romance.

Just like Germanic languages (English, Swedish, Germany, Dutch, etc. ) are called germanic because they originates from the same are that is known as Germany nowadays.

[Drake498]

wow... this started as a 'Is Alizée fluent in English?' thread, now its a heated debate :eek:

[SupaKrupa]

Wow, I demand some privacy! But yeh... what RMJ said (and thanks CFH for originally "learn-deding" me)

[RMJ]

I covered that (I think) in my original post. The romance thing was just a spin off of Zack's post.
I know your original post had it right but everything after that was going straight to hell.

[Deepwaters]

Another thing not commonly recognized is that English has a lot of French in it. Modern English derives from two roots, Old English or Anglo-Saxon and French, dating from the Norman Conquest. The two languages are closer than English is to anything else except another Germanic language such as German or Dutch. Even if you don't know any French, you can recognize a lot of the words, especially when you're reading rather than hearing, because the same words or something close to them occur in English. So for a French person, English is a relatively easy language to learn.

[WindReaver]

Funny... I looked up "Romance language" in the dictionary and it said:

"Any word uttered by Alizée." :confused:

I think your definition must be wrong... has nothing to do with Rome. :D

[Roman]

Remember who wrote these lyrics....The nice part about Mylène is you never know...for sure. And I think she likes it that way.
Well, if that song's any indication, Mylène is a frikkin genius in that field of endevor.:p

[Roman]

Embrace the female form in all its grace and beauty...But to each their own. Given the discreetness of the measure, there is no right or wrong when it comes one's personal likes or dislikes for these lyrics.
I was just going to say, "To each his own!", but thank you for your eloquent words.
Ok, Deep at least defends his point vigorously here.
My point still: whoever it is who creates these lyrics needs to be either a native speaker of the target language or know it well enough that we can't tell. Sometimes all it takes is asking an American, hey, does this sound weird? right?
(Ok, a Brit. I think the English was intended for them, not us.)

[Roman]

...I'm not sure whether I should post it here or in the French vs. English thread...
Hmm. I thought English was a "Romantic" language as well. I guess the part that has that heavy French influence is. (we use many French words or those of French origin as Deepwaters already well explained) The word romance also (obviously?) was derived from the character of the Roman bards, yes? (In a way, I suppose that has more to do with my name, Roman, by the way than any affiliation with Romans. Hmm. Just sounds good anyway. :p ) I'll take WindReaver's point, though.
As to chopping up sentences - everyone does that in every language. I'm sure many times in English songs I have heard stuff chopped up and didn't realize what the person was saying until I read the lyrics and figured out that the two parts were actually expressing one sentence. Alizée does that in French, splitting up some words or pronouncing them slightly differently than one might in conversation because it sounds better in the song. I also noticed that she tends to prounounce the e at the end of a word a lot. I don't know much French, but in the French I'm learning, I don't think that would normally be pronounced. Is she just doing that to sort of cheat and make the words rhyme or is that from a different dialect than I'm learning? In that video where she performs JEAM and gives away her double diamond award the woman says something about Alizée having an accent? Was she referring to Alizée's Corsican accent vs. a Parisian accent or something?

[RMJ]

Hmm. I thought English was a "Romantic" language as well.
English, like said, is Germanic language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_languages).


(we use many French words or those of French origin as Deepwaters already well explained)
Having loan words doesn't make language to be one group or another. It's the structure and origin of the language that decides in which group it belongs to.

For example, all Romance languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_languages) comes from Latin, the primary language of Roman Empire. And due to that history, the group of language is named after the country and their capital city, Roma (Rome in English).

[MiamMiam]

Hmm. I thought English was a "Romantic" language as well. I guess the part that has that heavy French influence is. (we use many French words or those of French origin as Deepwaters already well explained) The word romance also (obviously?) was derived from the character of the Roman bards, yes? (In a way, I suppose that has more to do with my name, Roman, by the way than any affiliation with Romans. Hmm. Just sounds good anyway. :p ) I'll take WindReaver's point, though.
As to chopping up sentences - everyone does that in every language. I'm sure many times in English songs I have heard stuff chopped up and didn't realize what the person was saying until I read the lyrics and figured out that the two parts were actually expressing one sentence. Alizée does that in French, splitting up some words or pronouncing them slightly differently than one might in conversation because it sounds better in the song. I also noticed that she tends to prounounce the e at the end of a word a lot. I don't know much French, but in the French I'm learning, I don't think that would normally be pronounced. Is she just doing that to sort of cheat and make the words rhyme or is that from a different dialect than I'm learning? In that video where she performs JEAM and gives away her double diamond award the woman says something about Alizée having an accent? Was she referring to Alizée's Corsican accent vs. a Parisian accent or something?

She pronounces syllables at the end of her words in her songs that aren't normally pronounced because they sound better and transition better between words. For example we use an instead of a when there's a vowel at the end of a word, it's the same concept in her songs I believe. For example:

Comme le vent
Emporte les maux de cœur
Dans un ouragan
Tourbillon mille à l'heure

In the song she pronounces dans with an s, however it's not pronounced in conversation, but it sounds better to sing it with an s.

[Deepwaters]

Dans un ouragan
Tourbillon mille à l'heure

In the song she pronounces dans with an s, however it's not pronounced in conversation, but it sounds better to sing it with an s.

Actually, if I'm understanding the rule correctly, the consonant at the end of words is pronounced when the following word begins with a vowel and silent when it begins with a consonent. So I believe she's correct in pronouncing the s there. Although I may be wrong; someone better versed in French can correct me if so.

[LiquidC]

Actually, if I'm understanding the rule correctly, the consonant at the end of words is pronounced when the following word begins with a vowel and silent when it begins with a consonent. So I believe she's correct in pronouncing the s there. Although I may be wrong; someone better versed in French can correct me if so.

You are right, she does not say "dans" though, what she says is "dan s'un" wich is how you are suposed to say it.

[garçoncanadien]

it's named an elision and is not done in all cases of ending consonant + next letter is a vowel - in some cases it is illegal :D

[Deepwaters]

English is classified as a Germanic language, but it has more in common with the Romance tongues than any other Germanic language. This is due to the French influence.

[RMJ]

English is classified as a Germanic language, but it has more in common with the Romance tongues than any other Germanic language. This is due to the French influence.
Even Dutch is closer to French than English.

[Deepwaters]

Even Dutch is closer to French than English.

I don't know Dutch so can't comment, BUT I do know German, and German most certainly is not closer to French than English.

Edit: You could take the above to mean "English is closer to French than German is," or "German is closer to English than it is to French." Both are true.

[Deepwaters]

Actually because of Dutch history, I would expect a considerable Spanish influence, wouldn't you?

[RMJ]

I don't expect anything.

But doesn't matter, English is still nothing like Romance languages. It has some loan words from French and some other languages but that's it. It has completely different grammar and structure.

[Deepwaters]

I don't expect anything.


Pshaw, of course you do; you will never convince anyone you are not a human being.


But doesn't matter, English is still nothing like Romance languages. It has some loan words from French and some other languages but that's it. It has completely different grammar and structure.

No, you want a language with completely different grammar and structure, check out Japanese some time. All European languages come from common roots and have common features, although of course there are differences.

When I say English and French are similar I am referring more to vocabulary than to grammar. Grammar is just rules, and you can learn those for any language much more easily and quickly than vocabulary can be expanded. So a sizable common vocabulary -- and English has a LOT of loan words from French, although sometimes they end up meaning something different, e.g. "reconnaissance" -- is the biggest factor in making a language easy to learn and understand. I'm finding French pretty easy to pick up. German was easy, too, and for the same reason. I would say English has more in common with German than it does with French, but not all that much more.

[RMJ]

No, you want a language with completely different grammar and structure, check out Japanese some time.
Thanks for advice but I have studied Japanese. It's grammar is much like Finnish. And pronouncing is equal to Finnish.

I also can understand little bit Korean thanks to those Japanese studies. It sounds very much like Japanese since they shares many words. But I can't read Korean at all (except Lili's name).


All European languages come from common roots and have common features, although of course there are differences.
Actually, they don't. Europe has two major groups of languages. Germanic and Romance. They are two complete different groups, sharing almost nothing in common. Inside the groups, they are all almost alike.



When I say English and French are similar I am referring more to vocabulary than to grammar.
Vocabulary has very little to do with classifications. And since the vocabulary changes all the time, there's no point even try to classify based on it. If you group languages based on vocabulary, then English's closest language is Japanese. Japanese has adapted tens of thousand English words in few decades. For example, ALL the sports names (except swimming and two others which I can't now remember, the other was some budo sport I think) are loaned directly from English. All the names of countries (except couple Asian countries) and their cities are adapted from English. All the western food and drink names are adapted from English. All the western furniture names are adapted from English. Everything, originally non-Japanese, has English names.

Visuki = whisky
burandee = brandy
biiru = bear
sarada = salad ( r = l in Japanese )
chiisu = cheese
meron = melon
painapuru = pineapple
orengi = orange
banana = banana
sofaa = sofa
paipu = pipe
koohii = coffee
tabako = tobacco
seetaa = sweater
resutoran = restaurant
karendaa = calendar
sutero = stereo
nooto = notebook
konpyuutaa = computer
pen = pen
terebi = television (terebi = televi, just -sion was cut off)
furaidopoteto = fried potatoes
doonattsu = donut
aisukuriimu = ice cream
chokoreeto = chocolate

All those out of my head and my vocabulary is tiny. And that's just tiny fraction of them... Notice, that you need to pronounce them like Japanese do.



Grammar is just rules,
Excatly. Grammar is the whole base of language. Without it it's just words here and there without logical connection.

[fsquared]

Here, I just had to do this. To show it could be done:

My world has no troubles,
Here under the bubbles,
Carressing my skin silkily.
My goldfish, he loves me,
Swimming here with me,
He tickles me under my knee.

No cares or troubles, just lazin' round,
Wrapped up in bubbles, sweet splashing sound,
Keeping it simple, it's hard to do,
But that's my secret for getting through.

I shut out my troubles,
Here under the bubbles,
Nothing that's bad can find me.
My bath takes forever,
In watery pleasure,
But I've got a list, oh, you see --
Of what gets to me:

I'm fed up with this damned rain,
People whose driving's a pain,
Can't think outside of a box
Predictable as a clock.
Hypocrites and fanatics,
And my sister's dramatics.
Don't get me started on zukes,
They make me swell up and puke.
I'm fed up with being made
To jump through hoops every day.
Fed up with being fed up -- that too!



Deepwaters,
I agreed with your opinion of I'm Fed Up.

I had an idea: I wonder if any of this board's chanteuses would be willing to lay down a vocal track of your lyrics against a JEAM instrumental, just to find out what it sounds like?

[heyamigo]

wow that's really good work deepwaters.

btw, why the song was supposed to be based on what she's fed up with, but she mentions a sister which she doesn't have, what's the deal with that? and i'm also guessing the sister and uncle are supposed to be someone else? what's the true meaning behind that?

[Deepwaters]

wow that's really good work deepwaters.


Meh, thanks but it could be a lot better. I was in a hurry. I just wanted to show that it wasn't impossible. Mylène Farmer writes wonderful lyrics in French, but she's just not as good in English. Probably not reasonable to expect her to be.

As to the who's who, Alizée doesn't have an older sister; if she did, things might have been a wee bit tense on her next trip to Ajaccio after J'en Ai Marre was released. ;) I think the "uncle overstressed" was slapped into the English version just because it rhymed with "loneliness," kind of. But who knows.

[Drake498]

but she mentions a sister which she doesn't have, what's the deal with that? and i'm also guessing the sister and uncle are supposed to be someone else? what's the true meaning behind that?
it could be just the writers imagination or methaphorical meanings

[heyamigo]

or maybe the sister is mylene or even mylene's sister?

[Deepwaters]

I also can understand little bit Korean thanks to those Japanese studies. It sounds very much like Japanese since they shares many words. But I can't read Korean at all (except Lili's name).


Japanese and Korean are related languages and also have influenced each other over the centuries, much as French and English are and have done. If there is grammatical similarity between Japanese and Finnish, however, that's accidental. There is no geographic possibility that THOSE two languages are related.


Actually, they don't. Europe has two major groups of languages. Germanic and Romance. They are two complete different groups, sharing almost nothing in common. Inside the groups, they are all almost alike.


Absurd, RMJ, and I think, moreover, that you know it's absurd. As I said once before, you'll argue about anything.

Actually, though, what I said was indeed wrong. There are anomalous European languages, such as Basque, which aren't related to the others. But for the most part, all European languages are related; all are in the Indo-European language family, which, in addition to the Germanic and Romance languages, includes the Slavic languages, Greek, Farsi, Sanskrit, and Hindi. And I'm sure I'm leaving some out.

Between the Romance and Germanic languages the classification is somewhat arbitrary anyway. All languages in both groups are formed from a cross-influence between Latin and some barbarian German speech, mostly during the Dark Ages although English is an exception. You think French isn't a Germanic language in the sense that it has Germanic roots? Look at the gutterals it contains, and the distinction between masculine and feminine nouns, and for that matter the mere existence of articles to modify them. You'll find none of that in Latin. It's all derived from Frankish, which was a Germanic tribal tongue. The suggestion that there is no connection at all among such closely-linked languages as English, French, German, Spanish, and Italian is preposterous. There isn't a linguist alive who would back you up on that.

I said English was an exception to that "Dark Ages" rule above. The reason for this lies in the Norman conquest of 1066. For several centuries after that event, the language of the English court and of most literate English people was French. English was still spoken by the common people, but during this time it underwent changes, absorbing a huge number of French words, and simplifying its grammar, since it was no longer a language of formal literature. In essence, English became a new language. Beowulf is written in Old English, while Shakespeare wrote in modern English. A modern English speaker can read Shakespeare without difficulty despite some archaic wordings, but not Beowulf, which is for purposes of understanding written in a "foreign" language.

And that's also why English and French are so close together and why it is relatively easy for a speaker of one to learn to understand the other. The real problem between the two is learning to speak correctly, because the two are far different in pronunciation.


Vocabulary has very little to do with classifications.


Again, you won't find a single living linguist who will agree with you on that. Vocabulary is at least as important as grammar for finding the patterns of descent and influence between languages.


If you group languages based on vocabulary, then English's closest language is Japanese. Japanese has adapted tens of thousand English words in few decades.


That's an immense overstatement, although of course it's true that there are many modern Japanese words derived from English -- and thus a linguist, studying Japanese, would identify influence on the language from English based on that shared vocabulary.

But no, English's closest language -- based on vocabulary -- is either French or German. I'm not sure which, as modern German is very closely related to one of English's roots (Anglo-Saxon), while French is its other root.

[CFHollister]

I know a bit about languages too since I've studied a lot about grammar and linguistics in my hobbie of creating my own constructed language. Deepwaters is completely correct on this one.

[Joey_adore_Jung]

i am pretty fluent un Ukrainian so just need to improve my French, but i hope she speaks it as fluently as she can it's the effort that counts eh?

[Deepwaters]

Deepwaters is completely correct on this one.

I did make one significant mistake, actually, and had better correct it before RMJ does. ;)

Latin, contrary to what I said, DOES have masculine and feminine nouns, as well as neuter ones (which French does not, but German does). However, it is true, as I stated, that Latin has no articles, while all so-called Romance languages do.

[fsquared]

RMJ,
That's cool that you've studied Japanese! (Cool too, Deepwaters and others.) I only took one evening class once but thought it was very interesting.

I found your statement about Japanese and Finnish rather interesting. When you said their pronunciations were "equal", did you mean "equally hard for a native English speaker to get right"? And grammatically, there seem to be a lot of differences. Finnish shares with the other Finno-Ugric languages the very elaborate system of postpositions for nouns that describe things like motion toward a point, at a point, and away from a point (locatives) and etc. And it has all sorts of verb tenses. I haven't studied Finnish per se, though I have studied some Hungarian so I've seen these grammatical constructs in action.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_grammar

Japanese, IIRC, has almost no verb morphology; it doesn't mark person (I, you, etc.) at all on the verbs, it doesn't mark tenses (past, present) at all, and it only marks perfective and imperfective aspect (which is sometimes sort of thought of as past vs. present).

They do, however, both share the tendency to put the verb at the end of the sentence. And I suppose if you want to count the particles used to mark verbs in Japanese like "no" and "go" as essentially post-positions, then you could make a case that they share that tendency (e.g., marking noun cases in a sentence with postpositions instead of by word order). Is this along the lines of what you intended?

Deepwaters,

Regarding "English's closest relative", the claim I see often is that its closest relative is Frisian. Perusing Frisian language promotion websites, I can believe that (particularly if one attempts to filter away the effects of the Norman conquest on English vocabulary).

The whole thing with vocabulary borrowing is certainly very interesting: I recall hearing that Romanian was once thought to be a Slavic language because of all the Slavic vocabulary but it was eventually found to be a Romance language with extensive borrowing.

Quite a multilingual crowd on this board! That's great!



Very well, substitute the appropriate term in place of "suggesting," and the point remains unchanged and unanswered. And the lyrics are still dreadful.



Indeed. But what I was getting at was that the eroticism in JEAM, and in Alizée's dance thereunto, isn't what bothers me about the English version (to which AFAIK she has never even performed that dance).

One thing that clearly needs to be done is to sever the concept of purity from the concept of virginity. With the possible exception of "Parler tout Bas," there is nothing virginal about any of Alizée's music but purity runs through it. In my opinion, she could be a lot more erotic (if she wants) and still not diminish that purity.

No, what bothers me most about "I'm fed up" is that it is not good writing. You've given me something else to be annoyed over, but nothing that changes the fact that it's STILL not good writing.

I hope it's not too rude to respond to old posts...she did perform the JEAM dance in English (TOTP), and it's on this board (video #1 even!)

http://moi-alizee.us/play/?v=1

[fsquared]

I tried to edit my post just now and lost all my changes so I'll start again. I got some of the same reactions listening to Shakira's Don't Bother (the tai chi and all that). It's hard for non-native speakers to know when a grammatically correct statement sounds, well, "corny".
Conversely, sometimes it's better not to know what someone's singing. E.g., Arash (www.arash.se) is catchy, and I like it, and it's in Farsi, and the translations seem to indicate that the lyrics are really mindless. (Though I think the Russian version of "Temptation" is actually a little meatier and more fun than the original English/Farsi.)

[Roman]

I know a bit about languages too since I've studied a lot about grammar and linguistics in my hobbie of creating my own constructed language. Deepwaters is completely correct on this one.
Really!? That's cool! Send me a link if you ever have information on the web about it.
I don't think I'll ever be able to participate in doing such a thing, but I have a rather passionate interest in the idea of doing it. If I could split myself into two...
I know it has been done before--esperanto, right? I have never looked at Esperanto at all...one of these days. But, I have so often thought that English has so many faults and broken rules--as does probably every commonly used language--that it would be really great to just start from scratch and create a new language with consistency and simplicity. Of course, the ideal new language would have as much of old languages as possible without compromising it's integrity. I don't know if such a task could be done though. There are so many considerations. How do you arrange it so that people can create new words with a minimal of borrowing from other languages, to avoid polluting its consistency? What is the best balance of language that is simple to learn, consistent in grammar and vocabulary, and still sounds nice and is easy to pronounce? If you can't enjoy singing it, for example, will anyone want to learn it? Even if you worked out all of that, you need to come up with words for everything! The best language would not just have a good structure of grammar, but structure of vocabulary. All the most common and basic ideas and connecting words should be short, then other words more complex and based on those short root words. Then again, while you would want words that are related to be similar in written and spoken form, you also want certain sets of words to be different enough to avoid mistaking one for the other. The concepts of "yes" and "no" are very much related. They are almost the same exact thing, except for the part about them being opposites! You certainly wouldn't want to create a language where one might mistake yes for no if they couldn't hear it very well, for example. So, there are forces that pull against each other in trying to figure out how to base and then derive a language conceptually.

[CFHollister]

Really!? That's cool! Send me a link if you ever have information on the web about it.
I don't think I'll ever be able to participate in doing such a thing, but I have a rather passionate interest in the idea of doing it. If I could split myself into two...
I know it has been done before--esperanto, right? I have never looked at Esperanto at all...one of these days. But, I have so often thought that English has so many faults and broken rules--as does probably every commonly used language--that it would be really great to just start from scratch and create a new language with consistency and simplicity. Of course, the ideal new language would have as much of old languages as possible without compromising it's integrity. I don't know if such a task could be done though. There are so many considerations. How do you arrange it so that people can create new words with a minimal of borrowing from other languages, to avoid polluting its consistency? What is the best balance of language that is simple to learn, consistent in grammar and vocabulary, and still sounds nice and is easy to pronounce? If you can't enjoy singing it, for example, will anyone want to learn it? Even if you worked out all of that, you need to come up with words for everything! The best language would not just have a good structure of grammar, but structure of vocabulary. All the most common and basic ideas and connecting words should be short, then other words more complex and based on those short root words. Then again, while you would want words that are related to be similar in written and spoken form, you also want certain sets of words to be different enough to avoid mistaking one for the other. The concepts of "yes" and "no" are very much related. They are almost the same exact thing, except for the part about them being opposites! You certainly wouldn't want to create a language where one might mistake yes for no if they couldn't hear it very well, for example. So, there are forces that pull against each other in trying to figure out how to base and then derive a language conceptually.

Lol, you've touched an a lot of the issues that one has to think about when you're constructing a language. Although one of my goals for my language is to be more regular than most natural languages it is not my goal to make an ideal language. I'm doing it to creat a language that I like. The script is pretty much perfected since I've been working on that since I was in the 4th grade (15 years now). I also have much of my grammar worked out, but the rest is kinda pending work on morphology (forms of words) and vocabulary gts worked out. But as you even mentioned, creating vocabulary has proven to be by far the most difficult task, and I anticipate that taking me quite a few years to make much headway on. I really want to use a consonantal root morphology like arabic and hebrew; but coming up with a nice, complete list of primitive roots has been a problem. Unfortunately Moe and atra haven't been as helpful as I hoped in providing a rather complete list of arabic roots :p Something like that would do wonders for me on my little project. It might be a while before I can post anything on the web other thatn the script.

[fsquared]

Have you ever looked at Lojban (lojban.org)? They wanted a "logical language". I remember looking at it briefly but I couldn't sustain my interest in the face of other constraints (e.g. school :) ). I'm sure they have a lot of philosophical explanations for their design rationales.

[CFHollister]

Have you ever looked at Lojban (lojban.org)? They wanted a "logical language". I remember looking at it briefly but I couldn't sustain my interest in the face of other constraints (e.g. school :) ). I'm sure they have a lot of philosophical explanations for their design rationales.

Yeah, I've heard about them. They provide some intereting ways to analyze lingustic constructions but I think the end result is dissapointing because it ends up being so cold and impersonnal. Nice goal, but in the end kinda pointless. Plus I think some people who attempt to create an "ideal" language (most logical, least prejudiced, easiest to learn, etc.) usually get too caught up in their ideals and end up being blinded to their own biases. That's why I'm just going so far as to creat a language that I like. Trying to get all headstrong with a consructed language isn't a good idea, I think.

[thats amazazazing]

Japanese and Korean are related languages and also have influenced each other over the centuries, much as French and English are and have done. If there is grammatical similarity between Japanese and Finnish, however, that's accidental. There is no geographic possibility that THOSE two languages are related.



Absurd, RMJ, and I think, moreover, that you know it's absurd. As I said once before, you'll argue about anything.

Actually, though, what I said was indeed wrong. There are anomalous European languages, such as Basque, which aren't related to the others. But for the most part, all European languages are related; all are in the Indo-European language family, which, in addition to the Germanic and Romance languages, includes the Slavic languages, Greek, Farsi, Sanskrit, and Hindi. And I'm sure I'm leaving some out.

Between the Romance and Germanic languages the classification is somewhat arbitrary anyway. All languages in both groups are formed from a cross-influence between Latin and some barbarian German speech, mostly during the Dark Ages although English is an exception. You think French isn't a Germanic language in the sense that it has Germanic roots? Look at the gutterals it contains, and the distinction between masculine and feminine nouns, and for that matter the mere existence of articles to modify them. You'll find none of that in Latin. It's all derived from Frankish, which was a Germanic tribal tongue. The suggestion that there is no connection at all among such closely-linked languages as English, French, German, Spanish, and Italian is preposterous. There isn't a linguist alive who would back you up on that.

I said English was an exception to that "Dark Ages" rule above. The reason for this lies in the Norman conquest of 1066. For several centuries after that event, the language of the English court and of most literate English people was French. English was still spoken by the common people, but during this time it underwent changes, absorbing a huge number of French words, and simplifying its grammar, since it was no longer a language of formal literature. In essence, English became a new language. Beowulf is written in Old English, while Shakespeare wrote in modern English. A modern English speaker can read Shakespeare without difficulty despite some archaic wordings, but not Beowulf, which is for purposes of understanding written in a "foreign" language.

And that's also why English and French are so close together and why it is relatively easy for a speaker of one to learn to understand the other. The real problem between the two is learning to speak correctly, because the two are far different in pronunciation.



Again, you won't find a single living linguist who will agree with you on that. Vocabulary is at least as important as grammar for finding the patterns of descent and influence between languages.



That's an immense overstatement, although of course it's true that there are many modern Japanese words derived from English -- and thus a linguist, studying Japanese, would identify influence on the language from English based on that shared vocabulary.

But no, English's closest language -- based on vocabulary -- is either French or German. I'm not sure which, as modern German is very closely related to one of English's roots (Anglo-Saxon), while French is its other root.





I'm not an expert at all on languages, I was just going to comment on something I read.


There was a book written by a professor of language, who was born in Rome ,and he was fluent in like 8 languages, and was familiar with hundreds.

well anyways, some information I read from his book was that 60 percent of the english vocabulary is derived from french. And that way back, when french was still a developing language, it was spoken harshly, similar to german and english.


this is what the author said, and I know i read, just commenting ^_^

[thats amazazazing]

The romance languages also include Romanian and Portugese. It is most common however to reference the big three (French, Italian, Spanish) as they are most widely known and spoken.

I am sure that Portugese is very appealing *though I do not hear enough of it to make that judgement.

For me it's
1) French
2) Italian- Could be #1, but because of my Sicilian/Bari roots, I don't want to seem biased.
3) Spanish

3 really is a crapshoot. Spanish is the most common of those languages for me to hear, and one I have classes in, so it really loses its appeal to me. Though, I think that when Spanish is sung properly with the correct dialect and music, it can sound beautiful. However its a huge step down frome Italian, HUGE.

All a matter of opinion and personal preference.

am i the only one who thinks Portuguese, mainly the Portuguese spoken in Portugal, sounds close to a slavic based language? I know it isnt, but the pronunciation sounds weird.

here are some good examples... the first one is the better example
<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/UrlQZUa3evE"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/UrlQZUa3evE" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

and

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/WPAX1hQ0Q5I"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/WPAX1hQ0Q5I" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

[Alizee_is_Scottish!]

am i the only one who thinks Portuguese, mainly the Portuguese spoken in Portugal, sounds close to a slavic based language? I know it isnt, but the pronunciation sounds weird.


Seriously, is that Portugese? I would have bet my Grandma that it was eastern European:eek:

Even worse, I've been to Portugal twice :blink:

I suppose I was quite drunk, but even so.............:blink:

[thats amazazazing]

Seriously, is that Portugese? I would have bet my Grandma that it was eastern European:eek:

Even worse, I've been to Portugal twice :blink:

I suppose I was quite drunk, but even so.............:blink:

yes it is, i was surprised when i had first heard it being spoken.

[Ricardo]

Portuguese, a slavic based language?:blink:

[Cooney]

Wow - that male voiceover sounded straight-up Russian to my ear. The women who spoke, I could hear the "romance" sound more (though I might have guessed Romanian), but most of the guys were very eastern European sounding to me as well.

Normally I have an ear for language - I even once correctly picked out Polish as a language I was hearing, with no basis for comparison - but this one surprises me. Does Brazillian Portuguese sound similar to Portuguese Portuguese? I know Mexican Spanish and Spanish Spanish are very distinct, maybe I'm more familiar with the Brazillian sound?

Not meant as an insult, qwerty or any other Portuguese members we have, but this one seriously makes me go "huh?"

edit: Listening again, I think it's all the "sh" and "tch" sounds that do it. Those are sounds I personally associate with eastern European languages - especially when combined with long "ee" sounds.

[Alizee_is_Scottish!]

Portuguese, a slavic based language?:blink:

If I had to guess, I would have said that first clip was Polish. Has he got a strong regional accent:confused:

I don't remember the folks in Lisbon sounding like that. Although I was running fast and the officers were shouting 'stop or I shoot' in Portugese. Didn't have a lot of time to think about it. And I'm not allowed back to check.;) :D

[Ricardo]

Normally I have an ear for language - I even once correctly picked out Polish as a language I was hearing, with no basis for comparison - but this one surprises me. Does Brazillian Portuguese sound similar to Portuguese Portuguese? I know Mexican Spanish and Spanish Spanish are very distinct, maybe I'm more familiar with the Brazillian sound?


No, they don't sound similar, they're very different actually.

This is Brazilian Portuguese:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcE3_TD3314

And this is Portuguese Portuguese:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqObEU8rm_c

just some random videos:p

[Drake498]

:D :D :D Welcome to the site qwertyytrewq!!! :D :D :D
It's great to have you with us, we are always excited to have new members, everyone on here is usually friendly :p and very helpful ;)
We are glad that you love Alizée as much as most of us do :wub:
And if you're confused :confused: about anything please feel free to ask or post anything, and we'll answer anything as best we can ;)
Hmmm :blink: you should prolly intoduce yourself next :)
http://moi-alizee.us/forums/showthread.php?t=707http:// (http://moi-alizee.us/forums/showthread.php?t=707http://)
Thanks for coming and enjoy the videos, boards, pics and chat!! :D

[Cooney]

No, they don't sound similar, they're very different actually.

This is Brazilian Portuguese:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcE3_TD3314

And this is Portuguese Portuguese:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqObEU8rm_c

just some random videos:p

Thanks for the links! Brazilian Portuguese is definitely what I have in my mind as "Portuguese." While I suspected they would be a little different, I didn't expect they would be that different! That's huge. Thanks again :-P

Oh, and as Drake says, welcome to the site!

[espire]

Deepwaters, that's beautiful! (though I still like J'en ai marre more.)

It's quite interesting how we can know so little about a person so famous as Alizée. Guess that's just how it goes when you're not in America...

[Ricardo]

Thank you all :)

[thats amazazazing]

Portuguese, a slavic based language?:blink:

sounds slavic to a foreigner was all i was saying, i know it isn't, but it has similar pronunciation, at least to me ^_^

[Roman]

Lol, you've touched an a lot of the issues that one has to think about when you're constructing a language... Uh, yeah. Sorry. I just got a little excited and I'm not even a linguist!
It's cool that you're creating some you like. Even though obviously great things come out of collaboration, from doing a little computer programming, for example, I know it's satisfying to create something like that just the way you want it.