The Unexplained

[nurvonic]

who believes in ghosts and UFOs and other unexplained stuff? i tend to be agnostic towards these types of things.

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[Joey_adore_Jung]

i really don't believe in it but i have seen some really odd stuff in my rather short life.

[RMJ]

Ghost ? LOL :D

UFOs ? Nope...

Extra terrestrial life ? Yes.


Why only the latter ? Becaue it doen't really need any believing anyways. It's simple math. Universe is fucking big place so it's very unlikely that there's no life. So, all odds are on extra terrestrial life (not necessary intelligent, but even that is very likely to exist).

But no, I don't believe there's UFOs and other shit. They are just stories. If there would be another intelligence, advanced enough to travel billions of light years to here, we'd know of them, or we'd never heard of them. If they were hostile, we'd be long gone. If they were friendly, they'd never reveal themselves to us, or they would contact us directly, totally depending which would be better for üs.

[Deepwaters]

I believe in a lot of things that some people might call "unexplained," but those are things I've experienced myself and I usually have an explanation, even if it's sometimes pretty wild. I've never seen a ghost or a UFO/alien visitor, and so refuse to draw conclusions about them.

I wouldn't jump to some of the conclusions RMJ did, though. Most of those kinds of projections involve thinking that a civilization advanced enough to engage in interstellar travel would be motivated in the same ways as we would be if we had similar technology. But a little reflection on what's changed in the most advanced human cultures in the past 250 years will show how wrong that kind of thinking can be. Unless and until we find solid proof that they ARE here, I don't see how we can close the mental door either direction.

[Rev]

Ghosts (spirits) - yes

UFOs - those extra terrestrials had to get here somehow.


There is more to the topic of ghosts than I care to get into at the moment (fragments, projections, entities, etc.). However, there is a lot more going on here than we see with the naked eye.

Although I have never met an extra terrestrial (as far as I know) I have bumped into enough on this issue to no longer have any doubts. In my opinion, they exist and some are here (again - more happening than we know).

[thats amazazazing]

you mean alien like UFO's? everyone should believe in a UFO, it just an unknown flying object ^_^

anyways, on a serious note, i dont think there has ever been an alien sighting, i'm not saying they dont exist, but do you guys relaize how large the universe is? its constantly expanding, the chances of us already encountering another life form is very slim.

[Ben]

üs.
Löl.
Stop lying Ronny, we all know you're an alien.

[Drake498]

I do believe in Aliens and UFO's however i also believe that many of the stories about them are immensly fabricated, i think life exists of course, but theres too many BS stories about it -_-

Considering ghosts, i belive in as well, I have seen ghosts first hand on personal experiences and i know it wasn't a personification or illusion of my own imagination (altough, i do have a bizarre and graphic imagination)

[nurvonic]

^^ ooo drake tell us about this ghostly experience.

[Drake498]

^(uhh... need a flattered emoticon) well i've had one that took place at prision, one in my friends basement, and two to me personally - one at my old house and one in a field

i don't have time right now but i'll post them later tonight :D

[lefty12357]

Ghosts: No
Extra terrestrials visiting us: No
Life elsewhere in the universe: Probably

[Zack -Alizee Lover-]

Watching my dead uncle means i believe in Ghosts?

[nurvonic]

Ghost ? LOL :D.

yeah pretty anybody who has never had a ghostly encounter completely denies this.


UFOs ? Nope...

Extra terrestrial life ? Yes.


Why only the latter ? Becaue it doen't really need any believing anyways. It's simple math. Universe is fucking big place so it's very unlikely that there's no life..

correct. its actually so big, that it goes on forever into infinity. which means theres also an infinite number of intelligent life, and also an infinite number of intelligent life that far excedes our own technology by thousands of years, or however many years. and yet, not a one has visited us?


So, all odds are on extra terrestrial life (not necessary intelligent, but even that is very likely to exist).
But no, I don't believe there's UFOs and other shit. They are just stories..

stories, with plenty of video evidence to boot. so much video evidence and eye witnesses and other shit that brings a whole country, and the whole world for that matter, to talk about it. if its all one big hoax that's easily proven false, we wouldnt be here talking about it right now. there's just too much shit to completely deny any of it, and to say they are just "stories."


If there would be another intelligence, advanced enough to travel billions of light years to here, we'd know of them, or we'd never heard of them. If they were hostile, we'd be long gone. If they were friendly, they'd never reveal themselves to us, or they would contact us directly, totally depending which would be better for üs.

an interesting point was made on a television show i saw years ago.

imagine a civilization such as our own, with the same technology as we have right now, with the same air crafts, space crafts, satellites, etc, living on another world like our own in another galaxy. easy enough.

now imagine a civilization that was once like our own, but are now 1000 years ahead of us on a technological scale. they have conquered space, and have mastered the technology effecient enough to travel billions of light years away from their own galaxy. of course. hell, why not make it 1000,000 years. imagine a civilization 1 million years ahead of us. thats some major technology we're talking about. if we had that kind of technology, we would certainly use it to visit other planets.

honestly, i think we're a bore to them. thats why they havent revealed themselves to us. if they found us interesting, why not land on the damn White House lawn and announce themselves to the whole world. they just drop by every once in a while to drive us up shit creek, and basically to fuck with us. hey, aliens have a sense of humor too.

EDIT: not to imply that Alizee would be a bore to an alien civilization. they havent seen the La Isla Bonita video yet, so no wonder they havent landed on the white house lawn :p

[thats amazazazing]

correct. its actually so big, that it goes on forever into infinity. which means theres also an infinite number of intelligent life, and also an infinite number of intelligent life that far excedes our own technology by thousands of years, or however many years. and yet, not a one has visited us?


whats interesting about the universe being infinite is that, it IS infinite, but at the same time it is expanding, weird.

[Drake498]

AS REQUESTED:
The one in Prison was at Eastern State Penitentiary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_State_Penitentiary) was more towards the evening when i visted, the central 'hub' i guess is where you can look down all the halls of the prison similtaneously, i was hoping to see some sort of spectre but instead i felt as if i was always seeing something out of the corner of my eye, never being fast enough to fully look. It's not a strong account, but i strongly belive something or someone was there.

The second was creepy, i was in my friends basement where him and I with a few other friends had a party, most of them went home, but i stayed the night, i crashed on the futon. when i woke up, things were a little but normal otherwise. then someone walked past me, i assumed it was my friend but instead it was a woman, she was clothed but it was as if she had been completely sliced in half a couple times, i was dead silient, she looked at me then left. i got up and went over to my friend lying in his bed, i asked him later about what happened, he said that he'd seen her too, idk if that true but he described the same woman. he perceded to tell me that one of the poeple that once owned the house was murdered and then sliced and stuffed into the huge AC vent in the wall... I've slept over a couple other times at his house but haven't seen her recently at all

[SupaKrupa]

Bleh, one of my essays talked about this stuff. It had a scientific explanation (yet some speculation also) as to why its very probable that there's other life in the universe...

It goes something like this:
1. The big bang created matter.
2. From this matter, stars were born.
3. Planets are only here because of stars. Life is only here because of planets
4. Our star is young compared to others. What makes it so special to be the only star in the entire universe to foster life.

Then it goes on about how if our star is young, it is possible that there are life forms out there that are billions of years old; which could have flourished as our species has and then become extinct and then flourish again etc. And for fun, it talked about the 2nd law of thermodynamics...

So to answer your question, nurv... :p
Ghost: No. Unless I see one with my own eye or two.
UFOs: Flying saucepans or the top of dustbins caught in a small low pressure system.
Other life: Yes.

[heyamigo]

YES
YES
YES

i'm very gullible! :)

[SupaKrupa]

AS REQUESTED:
The one in Prison was at Eastern State Penitentiary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_State_Penitentiary) was more towards the evening when i visted, the central 'hub' i guess is where you can look down all the halls of the prison similtaneously, i was hoping to see some sort of spectre but instead i felt as if i was always seeing something out of the corner of my eye, never being fast enough to fully look. It's not a strong account, but i strongly belive something or someone was there.

The second was creepy, i was in my friends basement where him and I with a few other friends had a party, most of them went home, but i stayed the night, i crashed on the futon. when i woke up, things were a little but normal otherwise. then someone walked past me, i assumed it was my friend but instead it was a woman, she was clothed but it was as if she had been completely sliced in half a couple times, i was dead silient, she looked at me then left. i got up and went over to my friend lying in his bed, i asked him later about what happened, he said that he'd seen her too, idk if that true but he described the same woman. he perceded to tell me that one of the poeple that once owned the house was murdered and then sliced and stuffed into the huge AC vent in the wall... I've slept over a couple other times at his house but haven't seen her recently at all

Hehe... Love to believe it, but its all quite far-fetched to me, especially with the previous owner being murdered and such... Sounds like the TV show "Medium".

[CFHollister]

whats interesting about the universe being infinite is that, it IS infinite, but at the same time it is expanding, weird.

Actually, it is generally accepted in the current cosmology that the universe is finite; otherwise, the recent endeavors to measure the matter/energy/dark matter/dark energy content of the universe would be essentially meaningless. The universe is almost certainly finite, it just has no edge and there is no such thing as "outside" the universe. Anything that started with 0 volume (or plank volume, maybe) and expands at a finite rate has a finite size.

[SupaKrupa]

Shit, I didn't read your post, Nurv haha. (Sorry to go all sciency...)

The TV show has some logic to it, but you have to think about what ifs. 1,000,000 years is a long time to speculate over whether the human race would even still exist (or whether we destroy each other in a world war or if we completely deplete the planet's resources and kill it ourselves)...

And space travel is very unlikely... In order to space travel, one has to be able to reach the speed of light. And when one does so, one becomes either blind, or life is lived at a faster pace depending on how fast you're travelling compared to the light.

Just for kicks... Pretend you're travelling at the speed of light. You're running towards something. The information, or light, coming from that something would get to you twice as fast now that you're running at the same speed as it is coming to you... right? (Think relative velocities here... think two cars going towards each other). But now if you're running AWAY from something, and you turn your head back to look at it, the information or light from that something will never catch you... So effectively, you'd be blind if you turned around :p - Trippy eh!

With all that said. Space travel is possible. But hyper-space travel is not. We accelerate particles to near light speeds, but that's different.

[CFHollister]

Just for kicks... Pretend you're travelling at the speed of light. You're running towards something. The information, or light, coming from that something would get to you twice as fast now that you're running at the same speed as it is coming to you... right? (Think relative velocities here... think two cars going towards each other). But now if you're running AWAY from something, and you turn your head back to look at it, the information or light from that something will never catch you... So effectively, you'd be blind if you turned around :p - Trippy eh!

Actually this is not the way it works.
The speed of light is always measured to be constant. Most people miss what this means exactly. This mean that it is always measured to be constant regardless of the relative motion of any observers. Relative velocities in relativity are not addative, but are instead mitigated by relative length and time dialation. The information/light from the object you are approaching at the speed of light with reach you at the speed of light, and the light from the object you are receding from will at the speed of light will also reach you at the speed of light. This apparent paradox gets sorted out in the ensueing length and time dialations that occur as a consquence of you traveling at relativistic speed... and of course the equations of relativity. Trust me on this one ;)

[lefty12357]

Yes, the universe is finite, but boundless.

Even if a civilization mounted a huge search for life over a period of millions of years in just our galaxy alone, they would only be able to visit an extremely small percentage of it. It is very unlikely anyone would have found us out here in the galactic suburbs. I would think it would be more likely for us to receive a message than actual visitors. It would be a much more cost effective method.

[Drake498]

AS REQUESTED: (Part II)
The two other ones happened to me alone, the one in my room some may consider an angel? which would classify it as a spirit? Anyhow, i was deeply depressed a while back and wanted to commit suicide, i had a knife from the kitchen and was going to slit my wrists again, I was crying and moved the knife closer and i felt someone or something holding me hand with the knife, not letting me do it... as i looked up i saw a little girl, she static, as if with no features, tho she had long hair, but her whole self was like a static you see on a station of TV that you dont get, she was gently crying, and talked to me. she said she felt my exact pain and knew it well, she then bagan to hum a song by Beyoncé, my celeb crush at the time, i recognized it immediatly, and stared at the outline of her face, she somehow had a peiceing gaze even though she had no features, she whispered "i love you" and desinigrated and vanished... at the time it was something about those words "i love you" that made me stop... i can't really explain it tho...

The last one was when I was in a field in Australia, well not exatcly a field but a grassy overlook to Sydney, we stoped for the view, but i walked away from the others in my group cuz i was missing my girlfriend, (the trip was 3 weeks and Sydney was the last stop) so i looked at how beautiful the city was and just wished that she could see it too... and i really missed her, it pulled at my heart and i did cry a little bit. But as i was sitting in the grass just thinking about her, i heard a small noise behind me somewhere to the left, which was strange cuz the group was way over to my right. This specture was invisible but it sat down next to me, the grass was imprinted, it was strange, but wasn't the first time ghostly things had happened to me so i was curios... I whisped hello, and it replied hello as well, but the voice was that of a child, not my girlfriend. we both had a converstaion about how the trip was and how i missed my gf, and how its almost over and that it was amazing... like a whole conversation about it... it was soothing, calming, helped my heart feel relaxed even tho i was so say away from her... we were called back to the bus and i told it good bye, but b4 i got up from sitting, i could only hear it seeming to stand up, it told me to take care and small flames, like with a lighter but much smaller, resembled eyes as it walked away... thats was a good experience

[nurvonic]

[B]

The second was creepy, i was in my friends basement where him and I with a few other friends had a party, most of them went home, but i stayed the night, i crashed on the futon. when i woke up, things were a little but normal otherwise. then someone walked past me, i assumed it was my friend but instead it was a woman, she was clothed but it was as if she had been completely sliced in half a couple times, i was dead silient, she looked at me then left. i got up and went over to my friend lying in his bed, i asked him later about what happened, he said that he'd seen her too, idk if that true but he described the same woman. he perceded to tell me that one of the poeple that once owned the house was murdered and then sliced and stuffed into the huge AC vent in the wall... I've slept over a couple other times at his house but haven't seen her recently at all

pretty creepy. now, i could be the asshole skeptic and tell you you're crazy and you need some mental help and get your head examined, it was just your imagination, or try to think of some bullshit reason as to what you saw, or i can say you're just a lying attention whore.

but no im not an asshole, and i trust you are of sound mind.

[SupaKrupa]

Actually this is not the way it works.
The speed of light is always measured to be constant. Most people miss what this means exactly. This mean that it is always measured to be constant regardless of the relative motion of any observers. Relative velocities in relativity are not addative, but are instead mitigated by relative length and time dialation. The information/light from the object you are approaching at the speed of light with reach you at the speed of light, and the light from the object you are receding from will at the speed of light will also reach you at the speed of light. This apparent paradox gets sorted out in the ensueing length and time dialations that occur as a consquence of you traveling at relativistic speed... and of course the equations of relativity. Trust me on this one ;)

Hehe, schooled. I completely forgot about time dilation and length contraction.

[nurvonic]

Actually this is not the way it works.
The speed of light is always measured to be constant. Most people miss what this means exactly. This mean that it is always measured to be constant regardless of the relative motion of any observers. Relative velocities in relativity are not addative, but are instead mitigated by relative length and time dialation. The information/light from the object you are approaching at the speed of light with reach you at the speed of light, and the light from the object you are receding from will at the speed of light will also reach you at the speed of light. This apparent paradox gets sorted out in the ensueing length and time dialations that occur as a consquence of you traveling at relativistic speed... and of course the equations of relativity. Trust me on this one ;)

my thoughts exactly. you were definately schooled, Supa :p

[Drake498]

The following instances i typed i promise are true, you are entitled to your own opinion about them however, i have no reason to lie, but i can understand being plenty skeptical ;) and if you don't believe them thats ok with me, but this IS what happened to me, no TV drama shit :)

[Drake498]

To add to the "Think about this" section:

Would you be able to see yourself in a mirror you're holding is you where going the speed of light?
Hmmm....?

[Drake498]

I don't belive all ghosts are in a creepy sense, i think there are some that generally do 'haunt' places and the awaken when disturbed, but then there are some ghosts that aren't to creep but to help, like the ones in my house account, idk...

lol none of what i said matters if you don't believe they exist tho:p

[SupaKrupa]

my thoughts exactly. you were definately schooled, Supa :p

Hehe, but no one will ever know. They're still all "theories" after all :p I'd love if what I said were to happen though. "Blind, not blind! Blind, not blind!"

[CFHollister]

To add to the "Think about this" section:

Would you be able to see yourself in a mirror you're holding is you where going the speed of light?
Hmmm....?

Of course; you wouldn't notice anything special at all. Both you and the mirror are in, what is called, the same reference frame. That and the measured speed of light is always constant. You would notice nothing special at all.

Also think about this: What are you moving at the speed of light relative to? If you and your mirror where in a closed box, how would you know you were traveling at the speed of light?

Remember that relativity destroys the concept of absolute velocity and replaces it only with relative velocity. In fact, the constancy of the speed of light in all circumstances proves this fact. You can only ever say how fast you are moving relative to some other object (or what relativity woudl call another reference frame). The question "But how fast am I really going?" has no meaning whatsoever in relativity, or reality for that matter.

[Drake498]

To add to the "Think about this" section:

Would you be able to see yourself in a mirror you're holding is you where going the speed of light?
Hmmm....?

This was one of Einstiens questions he had about light, to see ones self in a mirror, light travels to the mirror and then bounces back into your eyes to see, so if you are traveling at the speed of light, the light would not reach the mirror as it is constant with your speed, nothing is reflected to your eyes to register so how could you see youself?

[CFHollister]

This was one of Einstiens questions he had about light, to see ones self in a mirror, light travels to the mirror and then bounces back into your eyes to see, so if you are traveling at the speed of light, the light would not reach the mirror as it is constant with your speed, nothing is reflected to your eyes to register so how could you see youself?

You need to read this post of mine: http://moi-alizee.us/forums/showpost.php?p=42570&postcount=21

If you're still not convinced, then you need to read up on relativity; 'cause if I try too hard to go into much more depth it will take me too much time to find my sources I used to read up on it about a year ago, too much time to explain it clearly, and as a result I'd probably mess up some important details.

Edit: I thought of a way to maybe partly explain things. In your example it is impossible for the light to not reach the mirror (and subsequently never reflected) because then the relative velocity between the mirror and the light would be zero. This just isn't allowed by nature: the speed of light is measured to be exactly the speed of light by all observers, even if your observer is some instrument located on the mirror itself.

[Joey_adore_Jung]

well correct me if i'm wrong but wouldn't the speed a ship going the speed of light cause a black hole or soemthing can't remember where i heard or read about it and most Rednecks believe in Aliens in fact, they are the most people who have actually reported a sighting.

[thats amazazazing]

AS REQUESTED: (Part II)
The two other ones happened to me alone, the one in my room some may consider an angel? which would classify it as a spirit? Anyhow, i was deeply depressed a while back and wanted to commit suicide, i had a knife from the kitchen and was going to slit my wrists again, I was crying and moved the knife closer and i felt someone or something holding me hand with the knife, not letting me do it... as i looked up i saw a little girl, she static, as if with no features, tho she had long hair, but her whole self was like a static you see on a station of TV that you dont get, she was gently crying, and talked to me. she said she felt my exact pain and knew it well, she then bagan to hum a song by Beyoncé, my celeb crush at the time, i recognized it immediatly, and stared at the outline of her face, she somehow had a peiceing gaze even though she had no features, she whispered "i love you" and desinigrated and vanished... at the time it was something about those words "i love you" that made me stop... i can't really explain it tho...

The last one was when I was in a field in Australia, well not exatcly a field but a grassy overlook to Sydney, we stoped for the view, but i walked away from the others in my group cuz i was missing my girlfriend, (the trip was 3 weeks and Sydney was the last stop) so i looked at how beautiful the city was and just wished that she could see it too... and i really missed her, it pulled at my heart and i did cry a little bit. But as i was sitting in the grass just thinking about her, i heard a small noise behind me somewhere to the left, which was strange cuz the group was way over to my right. This specture was invisible but it sat down next to me, the grass was imprinted, it was strange, but wasn't the first time ghostly things had happened to me so i was curios... I whisped hello, and it replied hello as well, but the voice was that of a child, not my girlfriend. we both had a converstaion about how the trip was and how i missed my gf, and how its almost over and that it was amazing... like a whole conversation about it... it was soothing, calming, helped my heart feel relaxed even tho i was so say away from her... we were called back to the bus and i told it good bye, but b4 i got up from sitting, i could only hear it seeming to stand up, it told me to take care and small flames, like with a lighter but much smaller, resembled eyes as it walked away... thats was a good experience

have you ever considered your depression to be linked with something else, like maybe you are imagining these things?

my uncles late wife had a mild form of schizophrenia, and she hallucinated from time to time.




I find it interesting how you have all these experiences, when most people don't even have one.

I'm not calling you a liar, i'm just saying the human mind has millions of ways to play tricks on you.

[lefty12357]

I remember when I was a kid I dreamed about traveling all over the galaxy in faster than light space ships. Then my father explained relativity to me and I was crushed. I hated the idea of time dilation and that there is a cosmic speed limit. It was one of life’s little lessons. As Carl Sagan one said, ‘The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition’.

[SupaKrupa]

This was one of Einstiens questions he had about light, to see ones self in a mirror, light travels to the mirror and then bounces back into your eyes to see, so if you are traveling at the speed of light, the light would not reach the mirror as it is constant with your speed, nothing is reflected to your eyes to register so how could you see youself?

That's what I thought at first... about an hour ago. But that exact question was answered by the person who posed the question wasn't it?

It's got to do with frames of reference. If you were sitting in a train travelling at 100km an hour and you throw a ball with the smallest of efforts towards the front of the train. The ball would not fly backwards but instead, travel at the same speed as if you were not in the train. But to someone outside of the train, outside of YOUR frame of reference, he would see this ball as travelling at 100km + whatever the velocity you threw it at. Same applies with the light.

[CFHollister]

I remember when I was a kid I dreamed about traveling all over the galaxy in faster than light space ships. Then my father explained relativity to me and I was crushed. I hated the idea of time dilation and that there is a cosmic speed limit. It was one of life’s little lessons. As Carl Sagan one said, ‘The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition’.

Well, if we can travel at some significant fraction of the speed of light, because of time dialation, insterstellar travel might be more feasable, at least for the people on the spaceship since they will experience the journey in a shorter amount of time than observers on Earth watching the journey. There are still possibilites...

I just think relativity is awsome. Without absolute space, time, or velocity, realtity become this very "fuzzy" concept. Yet at the same time, in this "fuzzy" reality of space and time, logical contradictions are still disallowed and causality reamins consistant. If that made any sense.

[Joey_adore_Jung]

^ wow this conversation has jsut gotten really smart? me go now i'm not up for learning

[CFHollister]

That's what I thought at first... about an hour ago. But that exact question was answered by the person who posed the question wasn't it?

It's got to do with frames of reference. If you were sitting in a train travelling at 100km an hour and you throw a ball with the smallest of efforts towards the front of the train. The ball would not fly backwards but instead, travel at the same speed as if you were not in the train. But to someone outside of the train, outside of YOUR frame of reference, he would see this ball as travelling at 100km + whatever the velocity you threw it at. Same applies with the light.

Nice try but not really correct :p
Remeber that velociteis in relativity are not additive like your ball traveling at (its velocity) + (the train's velocity).

Here's how velocity addition works in relativity (taken from a relativity Q/A answered by an astronomer accessible through this site (http://einstein.stanford.edu/), but you need to follow the links: "gp-b classroom," "relativity q/a," #155):

"If two objects approach at 75 percent the speed of light, why are they not traveling 1.5 times the speed of light?"

"The special relativistic formula for adding velocities to determine a relative velocity between approaching or receding bodies is:
http://moi-alizee.us/forums/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=34300&g2_serialNumber=1&g2_GALLERYSID=7f7d46a60bff902a56cf55d25020066e
so that if v1 = 0.75c and v2 = 0.75c then
http://moi-alizee.us/forums/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=34302&g2_serialNumber=1&g2_GALLERYSID=7f7d46a60bff902a56cf55d25020066e
or V = 0.96c. This means that if you were sitting on either body 1 or body 2 using a clock and a meter stick at rest with respect to you, ( called the 'proper measuring system'), you would note that the relative speeds were 0.96 times the speed of light. If you were sitting on a third body watching these two approach each other using a third reference system, if you did not properly allow for the difference in the time dilation factor, you might be tempted to, say, divide the distance traveled by these two observers on bodies 1 and 2, by the wrong time reference, and end up with a velocity greater than light. The problem is that, because of the finite time delay introduced by the propagation of light, you will get confused in how to measure, simultaneously, when the two bodies arrive at a certain separation that you use to measure their velocity. This is all automatically included in special relativity which gives the correct predictions for all motions near the speed of light.
I am sorry if this explanation is a bit unsatesfying. Some problems that we all have in understanding how nature works, have more to do with our conviction that our intuitions are correct, despite the fact that our intuitions are often flawed in areas of experience outside of our normal environment."

Just incase you wanted to know :p Ok, so I may have gone a little off the deep end. Oh well.

[Deepwaters]

I'll add one thing to the relativity discussion above. Because of the effect of relative velocity on mass/inertia, it is actually impossible for any object with a nonzero rest mass to accelerate to the speed of light. The equation for relativistic mass makes any such body reach infinite mass at C, which means it would take infinite energy to accelerate it to C.

Now, here's one quite speculative take on the possibility of interstellar space travel.

Relativity theory says it is impossible to travel faster than the speed of light; what we don't have, though, is a theory that reconciles relativity with quantum mechanics, and there are aspects of quantum theory that suggests the speed of light to be a variable rather than a constant (although for practical purposes in all macroscopic applications it can be treated as a constant). One possibility is that the speed of light is actually an average around which photons travel within the parameters of quantum uncertainty (since velocity is measured in terms of energy, distance, and time, and all of these are affected by uncertainty in one way or another). Thus, the speed of light that we measure is dependent on probability remaining a constant with respect to the velocity of individual photons.

If there were a principle in physics -- which there isn't that we know of, but we're speculating about highly advanced civilizations here -- that allowed alterations in the probability of indeterminate events, a spaceship might be able to generate a "bubble" or maybe "warp field" around itself in which the speed of light is itself accelerated to many times its normal. It would still be impossible, according to relativity theory, for the ship to accelerate to the speed of light, but since the speed of light has become much faster within that bubble, the ship could then accelerate to much faster than what the speed of light usually is.

In fact, one rather twisted, but I think arguable, consequence of relativity is that we are actually thinking of velocities in the wrong way. A velocity might more accurately be described in terms of a percentage of C rather than units of distance over time. And in those terms, the same amount of energy that could, under normal conditions, accelerate a ship to 10,000 kph, might accelerate it to 10,000,000 kph under "warp drive" conditions, those representing equal percentages of whatever C happens to be.

All of this is way off the wall stuff. I'm just saying, we shouldn't assume, just because our current physics says something is impossible, that a more advanced civilization won't find a way around that wrinkle. We don't know everything about the universe and we never will.

[Deepwaters]

AND, w/r/t ghosts -- I think it's important to distinguish between a phenomenon and an explanation for the phenomenon. What Drake described was a phenomenon, something he experienced. "The soul of the murdered woman is bound to the house where she was murdered" is an explanation for that phenomenon. This explanation can be wrong, without the phenomenon being any less real.

It's not unlike saying that, just because the sun isn't the fiery chariot of the god Apollo, that doesn't mean there is no sun.

[SupaKrupa]

I'm gonna quit and go die.

[Joey_adore_Jung]

^ no we enjoy your posts they are fun to read hey i couldn't understand a thing about what CF and Deepwaters said.

[CFHollister]

what we don't have, though, is a theory that reconciles relativity with quantum mechanics

Another thing we don't have is an explanation (I'm tempted to use the word "theory" but that would be misusing the word) that reconciles free will with physics (either classical determinism or quantum mechanical indeterminsm/probability). Of course you can abandon the notion of free will, but if you stick to your "free will" guns, I think there are some pretty fasciniating philosophical consequences. I won't go into that any further 'cause I just know it will go into a topic that RMJ will throw a hissy fit over and probably shouldn't be discussed in a place like this. :)

[Deepwaters]

Another thing we don't have is an explanation (I'm tempted to use the word "theory" but that would be misusing the word) that reconciles free will with physics (either classical determinism or quantum mechanical indeterminsm/probability).


I'm glad you brought that up. :)


I won't go into that any further 'cause I just know it will go into a topic that RMJ will throw a hissy fit over and probably shouldn't be discussed in a place like this. :)

Heh. Well, I'm not nearly so scrupulous myself, so here goes. ;)

You're right that what I'm about to present isn't properly called a "theory." That word applies only in the context of science, and when we start talking about free will, we enter an area of intrinsic subjectivity which is, inherently and forever, outside the scope of science. So this is not a "theory," it's a philosophical idea.

We may approach human behavior in two completely different ways. One way is to observe behavior from the outside. The other way is to experience behavior from the inside. It's the same behavior either way, but the two approaches generate different sets of ideas.

When I studied experimental psychology in college, I was using the first approach. When I create a (hopefully) believable and sympathetic character in my fiction, I am using the second approach.

"Free will" is a concept that has any meaning only from that second, from-inside, subjective approach to behavior. I experience my own choices as if they were freely made. But if I observe someone else's choice, without trying to empathize with him/her based on my own subjective experience, I don't see a free choice, I see either a deterministic outcome or a random one.

But that doesn't mean that, objectively, free will doesn't exist. It just means the question has no meaning: it cannot be asked in an objective context, and therefore cannot be answered. Which means it can't be answered "no," any more than it can be answered "yes."

Again: subjectively, we experience our choices as if they were free. Objectively, those same choices are observed to be either determined or random.

If a choice is observed to be determined, then the subjective experience of free will is an illusion. A determined choice cannot be a free choice.

If the choice is observed to be random, however, then the subjective experience of free will is real and non-illusory. The choice is "random" only when viewed from outside, because the element of choice which makes it non-random can only be experienced subjectively, from within.

[lefty12357]

Well, if we can travel at some significant fraction of the speed of light, because of time dialation, insterstellar travel might be more feasable, at least for the people on the spaceship since they will experience the journey in a shorter amount of time than observers on Earth watching the journey. There are still possibilites...

I just think relativity is awsome. Without absolute space, time, or velocity, realtity become this very "fuzzy" concept. Yet at the same time, in this "fuzzy" reality of space and time, logical contradictions are still disallowed and causality reamins consistant. If that made any sense.

I have to agree with you that relativity is pretty amazing, and it does make perfect sense. It just came as a shock to me when I was young and first introduced to it.

By the way, I'm holding out for some kind of wormhole subway system...lol

[Sir Wood]

Nice thread! We went from the unexplained phenomenon and paranormal through physics towards philosophical. The circle is almost complete.

Sorry Deepwaters, I skipped your ghostly stories because I'm a scardy cat and I'll let them be! :eek:

[Alizee_is_Scottish!]

I'm presuming most of this thread is written in French - because I don't understand 90% of it :blink: :confused:

And you realise this is the random thread that Alizée will pick to try out her English........:eek:

[Sir Wood]

And you realise this is the random thread that Alizée will pick to try out her English........:eek:
LOL, I'm sure she'll be able to follow along nicely. Besides, she is superstitious herself. ;)

[CFHollister]

Sorry Deepwaters, but I've run out of time go into detail so I can only hint at stuff. I was gonna take the free will topic on a completely different tack.

-The physical sciences as we understand them, deny free will because they create either an inherently deterministic, or indeterministic universe.
-If free will exists, then there exists another physical force in the universe which is unaccounted for by physical science. It is a physical force in that it is capable of changing the physical motion of objects.
-If such a force exists, and the motion of objects is otherwise determined (or indetermined) by physics, what is the agent of such a force?

-Things get really interesting if one entertains the notion that free will may be the only force in the universe.

Anyway, would love to got into it more, but am just out of time for tonight.

[Deepwaters]

Sorry Deepwaters, but I've run out of time go into detail so I can only hint at stuff.

Quite all right, sir. I shouldn't be here either, honestly, as this time of evening I should be either writing or studying. Later on, then.

[fsquared]

There's actually been some interesting mathematical progress on the notion of free will recently: the Conway-Kochen theorem, which basically says that if observers have free will, then given certain assumptions, elementary particles must also have free will as well. (Making sense of this statement requires a formalization of the notion of "free will"). Here is the relevant wikipedia entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will_theorem

[lead2gold]

Now I realize that this thread is so off topic now that posting to the original topic is fairly pointless now, but I will still throw my opinion in there anyway.

Aliens/UFOs - No, Either they are smart enough travel billions and billions of miles to reach us and hide themselves, or they can't. Why would they show "quick glimpses" of themselves if they could hide? And if they wanted us to see them, why would they hide? Add to that the fact that most "UFO" encounters can be easily explained by science and logic given the real facts of what happened, and I think the chance that anyone has seen a real alien is pretty slim.

On the other hand, do I think there is other life? Of course. In fact, given the size of the universe, I am almost 100% positive that there has to be other life.

[bt_bird_90]

~I have all the answers~
...but I don't feel like sharing.



who believes in ghosts and UFOs and other unexplained stuff? i tend to be agnostic towards these types of things.
What would you define as a ghost? There are a lot of ways this could go...

However, there is a lot more going on here than we see with the naked eye.
......Exactly! Rev's got his head in the right place.
Take a look at say, the light spectrum: visible light(what we see) is only an itty-bitty portion of what's really going on, constantly.
......Can you explain color to a blind person? Can I ask a python what my heat waves taste like? There are too many factors we don't know enough about, and even more we don't know we don't know about.

otherwise, the recent endeavors to measure the matter/energy/dark matter/dark energy content of the universe would be essentially meaningless.
......EVERYthing we know of in existance is built off of atoms, protons and neutrons. That's why dark matter and dark energy are so tricky. There's "stuff" out there, we know it has to be, it fits the math, but we can't see it, it could be based on some completely different structure; how can you build a detection device(also, pretty much what our eyeballs are for), to detect something made of something other than atoms, when it is made in a world of atoms and it constructed of atoms?
......And to use a bland pop-culture reference, The Matrix, what can we believe? Answer:that the effect you leave on others was left with the best intention you could manage, and the secrets you leave that history will never know
......Their are entire religions based on this stuff, what is "reality", and seen from whom, and how much of it do we see? Life as we know it is lived within a box, with only a small pinprick of light to the outside. If it doesn't activate any my few 5 senses, oh well.
......With all the unknown factors AND those floppy multi-dimension junk theories floating around, there may not be ghosts as they are commonly thought of, but more often than not all these beliefs humans come up with have some cause for them to appear.
......Hey, when I'm dead, someone take a glance at my corpse, something's obviously missing that there was a few minutes ago, that something's gotta go somewhere, right?

I do believe in Aliens and UFO's however i also believe that many of the stories about them are immensly fabricated, i think life exists of course, but theres too many BS stories about it -_-

......InMyRealisticHumbleOpinion, most of this stuff is applejacks, the incidnets just happen to always match what we are taught in hollywood, and exactly as Nurvonic and thats amazazazing mentioned, thinking is trickier than you think. But don't be too hasty before shutting someone down entirely.

stories, with plenty of video evidence to boot. so much video evidence and eye witnesses and other shit that brings a whole country, and the whole world for that matter, to talk about it. if its all one big hoax that's easily proven false, we wouldnt be here talking about it right now. there's just too much shit to completely deny any of it, and to say they are just "stories."
......Then again, on both aliens and ghosts, there's always the stance that if everyone keeps spontaneously spouting the same idea, uninfluenced, it has to be coming from somewhere


correct. its actually so big, that it goes on forever into infinity. which means theres also an infinite number of intelligent life, and also an infinite number of intelligent life that far excedes our own technology by thousands of years, or however many years. and yet, not a one has visited us?

......Even if the odds of finding life are microscopic, a chance times a big number, equates to quite a few chances, multiply it again, you get an even bigger number, multiply that times infinity, the times you find life reach infinite too. :blink:
......In agreement with what CFHollister said, I personally haven't made it out to the edge of all existance myself recently, but I am unfortunately told the universe is indeed finite. :(
......The cool part is, I don't care who you are, you don't understand infinity, we just can't comprehend it, there is nothing to compare it to, which is how humans do a lot of their thinking. Like time, the concept of time is an invention of man, it's just a measurement we like to fool around with, without anything around to see its affect on, we can't recognize time.


an interesting point was made on a television show i saw years ago.

imagine a civilization such as our own, with the same technology as we have right now, with the same air crafts, space crafts, satellites, etc, living on another world like our own in another galaxy. easy enough.
......That can be a scary thought in it's own, look at us as a species... we can suck at times. I wonder if they would even want to acknowledge us as the dominant species. We rape, kill, poison the planet, breed, consume, die, repeat. As Agent Smith said, humans are very locust-esque. And killing of your own species for no purpose is a big galactic no-no.

honestly, i think we're a bore to them. thats why they havent revealed themselves to us. if they found us interesting, why not land on the damn White House lawn and announce themselves to the whole world. they just drop by every once in a while to drive us up shit creek, and basically to fuck with us. hey, aliens have a sense of humor too.
......Who gets to represent all of us? the U.N? Scientists? Alizée, d'uh! or the "primative" tribes in the African savannah, whom haven't ever been exposed to a piece of modern technology? I bet my dog isn't wondering where a black hole leads to, he just wants food and an occasional piss on a tree, he's in a perfectly content state of mind, does that put him in a more enlightened status than us?


now imagine a civilization that was once like our own, but are now 1000 years ahead of us on a technological scale. they have conquered space, and have mastered the technology effecient enough to travel billions of light years away from their own galaxy. of course. hell, why not make it 1000,000 years. imagine a civilization 1 million years ahead of us. thats some major technology we're talking about. if we had that kind of technology, we would certainly use it to visit other planets.
The future holds more mystery than the best of sci-fi writers could ever dream to imagine, who sais in 1000 years, we will still be human? Evolution... we are pushed to evolve to conquer obstacles, breed, continue the process, become more efficient at conquering more obstacles, but... Why? What's the point to it? When to we hit the evolutionary roof?


honestly, i think we're a bore to them. thats why they havent revealed themselves to us. if they found us interesting, why not land on the damn White House lawn and announce themselves to the whole world. they just drop by every once in a while to drive us up shit creek, and basically to fuck with us. hey, aliens have a sense of humor too.

...... :D Hehe, as a normal-conversation side note that has something to do with that... It's the theory of my sister's and mine that Stonehenge is really the result of some mischevious teenagers from back-in-the-day that had too much fun on a Saturday night and said "Hey, you wanna REALLY fuck with the future!? let's stand some big rocks in a circle, they'll be leik, "WTF!?" LOLZ!!!"


anyways, on a serious note, i dont think there has ever been an alien sighting, i'm not saying they dont exist, but do you guys relaize how large the universe is? its constantly expanding, the chances of us already encountering another life form is very slim.
......This could happen within our lifetimes, there are legit equations out there, Drake's equation for one, that cut down the features we know we can look for, or at least start to look for, to find conditions similar to our own,


Even if a civilization mounted a huge search for life over a period of millions of years in just our galaxy alone, they would only be able to visit an extremely small percentage of it. It is very unlikely anyone would have found us out here in the galactic suburbs. I would think it would be more likely for us to receive a message than actual visitors. It would be a much more cost effective method.
......The people we have working on this stuff are plenty smart, they aren't spending resources on bulk space exploration, they are developing tricks to find suns like our own, then they look for nearby planets, and then planets similar to our own, it's all about knowing WHERE to look.


......In plain, simple, earth-terms, I don't believe aliens have been around my neighborhood, the main reason is the lack of origionality found in the stories, come up with something new and exciting people! Flying saucers and big-eyed grey things did NOT originate from your OWN head! Find me a redneck hillbilly talking about a flying SPOON shaped craft, THEN I'll be breaking out the aluminum foil helmets.


With all that said. Space travel is possible. But hyper-space travel is not. We accelerate particles to near light speeds, but that's different.
I remember when I was a kid I dreamed about traveling all over the galaxy in faster than light space ships. Then my father explained relativity to me and I was crushed. I hated the idea of time dilation and that there is a cosmic speed limit. It was one of life’s little lessons. As Carl Sagan one said, ‘The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition’.
Well, if we can travel at some significant fraction of the speed of light, because of time dialation, insterstellar travel might be more feasable, at least for the people on the spaceship since they will experience the journey in a shorter amount of time than observers on Earth watching the journey. There are still possibilites...
......Traveling "faster" than light is certainly possible, there will be a way to figure it out, we may not see it yet, and I sure as hell don't know how, but theories crumble and are replaced over time, things once thought impossible always work out with a little better understanding, that's why I can type a lot of this like I'm the one and final authority on it, and stay so cocky about a lot of this stuff. One example I can recall is... staying put, but bending space time AROUND you to reach your destination, warp drives, woot. Or you could bend time, there wouldn't be much need to travel at the speed of light if you can travel lightyears in a minute of your own time.



3. Planets are only here because of stars. Life is only here because of planets
4. Our star is young compared to others. What makes it so special to be the only star in the entire universe to foster life.

......I disagree when contemplating the sheer vastness of the universe(really, it's insane, nobody here can begin to claim they can conceivably fathom begginnings of the smallest part of the sheer scale of things, it's beyond you, accept it, it's THAT big) it's always a reassuring thought to ask... If this universe is filled with all these laws, and theories, where everything has a job, serves a purpose, and is there because it's the most effecient way to be, then what is the purpose to have a universe, if life(the itty-bitty specs of mathematically too small to be worth mentioning in the big equation, in-existant farts in the wind that we are) is not around to observe it? All this is here just for us, THAT makes me feel pretty empowered.

As nurvo said so expertly titled this thread, "The Unexplained" it is and always will be, so don't worry about it and just live your life, it's thrilling

To sum it all up for those that aren't daring enough for the long read: "Sure, maybe."


and I got pwned by the past 2 pages, but I was already typing, so screw you guys

and I propose the next step off-track for this discussion,
- Unified Theorum -

Scientists are looking for one thought, about the length of a sentence that ties together EVERYthing.



oh, and :p
I <3 Alizée

[rcs]

My turn...

Ghosts...Simply don't want to believe. Last thing I need having ghosts look over my shoulder late at night while I surf for Lili pics....:eek: The thought of them getting free internet, no way!

UFOs...I'm open. Definitely, don't think we're alone when we talk universe.


Items of interest (for anyone):

1. I believe it was the French govt that did a serious UFO study in recent times (last 10 yrs). Can't remember the name of it...RMJ or Garco help...:o

2. www.disclosureproject.org

[SupaKrupa]

Sorry, bird. What are you disagreeing with? Maybe I should have put a question mark at the end of that like it was meant to have. Because I agree that the universe is vast and we know shitall about it.

[garçoncanadien]

rcs dig in my friend ;)

http://www.cnes-geipan.fr/

[rcs]

The COMETA REPORT!

Thanks Garco!

Liked to know what Lili thinks about UFOs...:)

[garçoncanadien]

The COMETA REPORT!

Thanks Garco!

Liked to know what Lili thinks about UFOs...:)

how knows you how to read French all of a sudden :D

j/k

[Drake498]

have you ever considered your depression to be linked with something else, like maybe you are imagining these things?
my uncles late wife had a mild form of schizophrenia, and she hallucinated from time to time.

I find it interesting how you have all these experiences, when most people don't even have one.
I'm not calling you a liar, i'm just saying the human mind has millions of ways to play tricks on you.

and i agree with the human mind having tricks... and idk what it has been about me, i can't say that its impossible that these were all fabricated in my mind cuz i have no hard evidence on them being real, but i know what i saw and i remembered them... and am i schizo? no, but i know someone that was, my g/f... shes schizo, but she hasn't talked about it recently, and when i asked her about it she said she hasn't heard any voices or singing, so maybe she's cleared, anyhow i'm not schizo. As far as depression goes its a possible cause for imagination, however my encounter wasn't like talking to an imaginary friend where you pretend to hear them... this was a real audible voice, i guess my strongest accounts were my personal ones, however anyone will question there validity, which is perfectly normal to do so.
But that is my account and I stand by it, cuz i know that ghost or not, something supernatural happended and was real

[Drake498]

That's what I thought at first... about an hour ago. But that exact question was answered by the person who posed the question wasn't it?

It's got to do with frames of reference. If you were sitting in a train travelling at 100km an hour and you throw a ball with the smallest of efforts towards the front of the train. The ball would not fly backwards but instead, travel at the same speed as if you were not in the train. But to someone outside of the train, outside of YOUR frame of reference, he would see this ball as travelling at 100km + whatever the velocity you threw it at. Same applies with the light.

i know with a ball, cuz even when the ball is at rest with you the ball is in actuallity moving at the speed of light with you, i got that, but with a mirror light has to travel to it first to bounce back at you, and if youre going th same speed of light.... well... idk then :p
Just get this part for everyone telling me about frame of reference, in Einstiens question there is no frame of reference out of the closed system, your not seeing on outsiders look, the only thing you may or may not see is the mirror youre holding... thats the only part of the question....

[RMJ]

yeah pretty anybody who has never had a ghostly encounter completely denies this.
And who "has" them belongs to mental hospital. Or has escaped from one.



correct. its actually so big, that it goes on forever into infinity. which means theres also an infinite number of intelligent life, and also an infinite number of intelligent life that far excedes our own technology by thousands of years, or however many years. and yet, not a one has visited us?
Universe isn't infinite. It has finite space and time. It's fucking big and rather old (but nothing mind boggling yet). There is finite number of life in universe and even smaller number of intelligent life, and even less technologically advanced species.

Even if there is civilization that is millions or even billions years ahead of us, doesn't mean they are capable of travelling anywhere in space except local space since, like said, universe is fucking big. Physics laws are the problem, they were never designed for cross galactic travelling. Chances that advanced civilization visits us or we visit any solar system with advanced civilization is about zero. If not less... Beside, the history of human civilization is so short that we couldn't say a thing what has happened in universe. Maybe someone has sometimes visited here, but chance that the visit has happened in the past 10000 years or so is so god damn small that it can't be even calculated.



stories, with plenty of video evidence to boot. so much video evidence and eye witnesses and other shit that brings a whole country, and the whole world for that matter, to talk about it. if its all one big hoax that's easily proven false, we wouldnt be here talking about it right now. there's just too much shit to completely deny any of it, and to say they are just "stories."
And all suddenly started around the time when hollywood started to show UFO films. :rolleyes:

And funny thing that no stories matches. If they are real ones, there must be thousands of different ET life forms visiting us every year.



now imagine a civilization that was once like our own, but are now 1000 years ahead of us on a technological scale.
They are dead.

As we will be in thousand years. Or at least living stone age again.



imagine a civilization 1 million years ahead of us. thats some major technology we're talking about. if we had that kind of technology, we would certainly use it to visit other planets.
Other planets ? Yes.

Other stars ? Barely.



honestly, i think we're a bore to them. thats why they havent revealed themselves to us. if they found us interesting, why not land on the damn White House lawn and announce themselves to the whole world. they just drop by every once in a while to drive us up shit creek, and basically to fuck with us. hey, aliens have a sense of humor too.
Well, excatly like I said. If they are not hostile specie, and they comes here, there's two options. Either they gives a shit of us, or they will show themselves to us. Most likely the first option. Since intelligence who is able to travel this far, is smart enough not to start mess with other species development.

[RMJ]

Löl.
Stop lying Ronny, we all know you're an alien.

Yea, but you are not supposed to tell it to everyone ! It's a secret ! :blink:


And I did not abduct Alizée !

[lissa15]

that UFO stuff is a bunch of crap!!!!!:mad:

[nurvonic]

LOL

oh what have i done. wow i love rattling the cages on this site :D

[Deepwaters]

And I did not abduct Alizée !

Of course you didn't. I did. I'll be releasing her along with the new single. :p

Nurvonic: good job, man. :D

[Edcognito]

who believes in ghosts and UFOs and other unexplained stuff? i tend to be agnostic towards these types of things.


1. Ghosts - Nope, Spirit implies "Soul". Soul is really peoples reference to "themselves" - "I" or "me". When in reality - "me" or "I" is all about "memory". Without memory (short, med and long term) "me" is meaningless. What we "think" we perceive about the world is really "information" that has "been" processed. "Been processed" meaning "in the past" - no matter HOW fast you process - your always behind whats actually happening. When we die, we stop processing - thats all. Lots of people don't like that idea... but as someone else said here - The universe doesn't care much about our likes and dislikes".....

2. UFO - doubt - but willing to be proven wrong. I cannot for the life of me remember where i read it, but some scientist was reporting that they had "POSSIBLY" made a particle move (or appear to move) faster than light speed. I remember it some time ago (couple years?), and haven't come across anything lately. If "UFOs" are real, we either a) bore them, b) they have rules about "consorting with barbarians" c) have a rule forbidding contact with "undeveloped" civilizations or d) haven't found us yet. ;)

3. Alien Life - unknown, for me, but (imho) probable - the Universe is SO big, and SO vast, I personally believe that it is the height of hubris to assume that we are the only "intelligent" life in the whole of all the galexys. Bye the same token - Physics as we understand it, testifies that we can't travel faster than light - a speed that most writers of Science Fiction seem to presume would have to fall to the wayside for contact to occure. I say, wait 250 years or so, and THEN see what we can do.... No telling what will come along! :)


Ed:cool:

Please understand that all the above is my opinion - it is NOT in any way, shape or form to be read as a slander/liable on anyone else's beliefs.

ty :)

[bt_bird_90]

Sorry, bird. What are you disagreeing with? Maybe I should have put a question mark at the end of that like it was meant to have. Because I agree that the universe is vast and we know shitall about it.
That was just to the way you worded "Planets are only here because of stars. Life is only here because of planets", I like it the other way around, the universe is here because of life. :o

[Rev]

That was just to the way you worded "Planets are only here because of stars. Life is only here because of planets", I like it the other way around, the universe is here because of life. :o

How about this - all of this is here because YOU dreamed it into existance.

[Drake498]

I don't belive all ghosts are in a creepy sense, i think there are some that generally do 'haunt' places and the awaken when disturbed, but then there are some ghosts that aren't to creep but to help, like the ones in my house account, idk...

lol none of what i said matters if you don't believe they exist tho:p

Back on TOPIC.... ^

[Rev]

I am sorry if this explanation is a bit unsatesfying. Some problems that we all have in understanding how nature works, have more to do with our conviction that our intuitions are correct, despite the fact that our intuitions are often flawed in areas of experience outside of our normal environment."

So, occasionally, stop trying to use your intuition to "figure out" how nature works. Intuition is often trying to steer you to truth. However your mind wants to play with words (which are just abstractions OF abstractions). Sometimes you just have to stop and say WOW!


All of this is way off the wall stuff. I'm just saying, we shouldn't assume, just because our current physics says something is impossible, that a more advanced civilization won't find a way around that wrinkle. We don't know everything about the universe and we never will.

I agree.



This is a REALLY fun thread. Thanks to both of you (and others) for the continuing discussion.


By the way ....BOO

[Deepwaters]

That was just to the way you worded "Planets are only here because of stars. Life is only here because of planets", I like it the other way around, the universe is here because of life. :o

Oh, this is where it gets to be fun.

First off: epistemologically, what you said is definitely true. That is: we have an idea about physical reality that it objectively exists independently of our perception. A completely unverifiable idea, since we can't observe reality without observing it, but a common one. If we don't start by assuming this idea to be true, then the process of generating it goes something like this:

1) We experience reality subjectively
2) We cross-reference our experiences with each other, generating a common or interpersonal reality
3) We start to think of this interpersonal reality as existing independently of ourselves

So insofar as we can verify, the subjective experience comes first, and the idea of objective reality comes afterwards. Any contrary idea is just philosophical speculation. :p

Now, if you've succeeded in twisting your brain around that one, try this. All physical forces that science currently understands operate in only one temporal direction, past to future. But what if there were another force, one that doesn't actually involve energy, but rather a shift in the probabilities of indeterminate events? Since energy isn't involved, it would not be bound by the rules of energy, possibly including the arrow of time.

And if that were true, and if this force could be manipulated by living organisms (which might account for life's improbable nature), then life might influence events of the past to midwife its own birth, so to speak. And in that sense, the universe would exist because of life even if objective reality is true. :cool:

[Sir Wood]

And if that were true, and if this force could be manipulated by living organisms (which might account for life's improbable nature), then life might influence events of the past to midwife its own birth, so to speak.
Sounds like the "force" as used in Star Wars.


And in that sense, the universe would exist because of life even if objective reality is true. :cool:
You wouldn't be referring to Decartes "I think therefore I am" discourse or a play of it?

[Deepwaters]

Sounds like the "force" as used in Star Wars.


It is, although that doesn't mean Lucas had the right idea about it. He was making movies, you know. :)


You wouldn't be referring to Decartes "I think therefore I am" discourse or a play of it?

The only connection there is in the first part of what I said. I'm talking about an actual affect of the minds of living things on indeterminate events in the past.

Phenomena like ghosts and UFOs may actually be a good deal weirder than the explanations believers give for them.

[nurvonic]

thanks deepwaters, my head is officially ready to explode any minute now.

[bt_bird_90]

Sounds like the "force" as used in Star Wars.
I forgot the details and where I heard it, but somewhere I read "Jedi" is a legally reconized religion in Austrailia. :cool:

[Sir Wood]

I forgot the details and where I heard it, but somewhere I read "Jedi" is a legally reconized religion in Austrailia. :cool:

Doh, never knew that until I just Googled it and found the Wiki article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedi_census_phenomenon

But they're not a true Jedi until they can make their own lightsaber. :p

[Sir Wood]

I'm talking about an actual affect of the minds of living things on indeterminate events in the past.


If they're not determined (as defined by the word indeterminate, or correct me if I'm wrong), then how does one know if they're mind is affecting these events? How do you affect something that you're not aware of?

[Deepwaters]

If they're not determined (as defined by the word indeterminate, or correct me if I'm wrong), then how does one know if they're mind is affecting these events?


The only way you can know for certain is by means of a statistical analysis performed after the fact. In most cases, you don't know in any objective way, and I was offering this as speculation playing of what BT_Bird offered above.


How do you affect something that you're not aware of?

Non-deliberately, of course. Happens all the time, even by mundane means. In the present context, life might desire to generate its own existence, and so, without itemizing all the contributing factors (or even knowing anything about them), influence such things as whether the Big Bang occurs, how the laws of the universe fall into place in the first formative microseconds after that, the evolution of stars and planets into configurations suitable for producing life, and the course of events leading up to life itself, as well as evolution afterwards.

[Edcognito]

Oh, this is where it gets to be fun.

Now, if you've succeeded in twisting your brain around that one, try this. All physical forces that science currently understands operate in only one temporal direction, past to future. But what if there were another force, one that doesn't actually involve energy, but rather a shift in the probabilities of indeterminate events? Since energy isn't involved, it would not be bound by the rules of energy, possibly including the arrow of time.

And if that were true, and if this force could be manipulated by living organisms (which might account for life's improbable nature), then life might influence events of the past to midwife its own birth, so to speak. And in that sense, the universe would exist because of life even if objective reality is true. :cool:

Then I AM FORCING REALITY TO INTRODUCE ME TO Alizée NOW!

COME ON!

DO IT!

Well - he said it would "shift the probabilities of indeterminate events" - and what could be more indeterminate than me ever meeting Alizée? :( :( :( :( :(


maybe i missed something in the translation....

Ed:cool:

[Deepwaters]

maybe i missed something in the translation....


LOL yeah, like the limitations on the process, but that's my fault 'cause I didn't talk about them.

The more unlikely an event is, the more difficult it is to raise it to a reasonable probability. And it is impossible to raise any probability to 100% (or reduce it to 0%) no matter where it starts out.

Also, one works best on events that are the outcome of multiple indeterminate events. For example, the process of healing an injury is the produce of many, many small indeterminate events at the cellular level, which generate a bell-curve-shaped distribution describing how quickly an injury will heal. Affecting that distribution as a whole event is less effective than working on the cellular level to speed up the whole process, and the better healers do exactly that.

Also, there's the question of what you really, truly want, Ed. Right now, you have a harmless obsession. If you were actually meeting with Alizée on anything like a regular basis, your wife might have a thing or three to say about it, no?

And finally, what makes you think you haven't been introduced to her? Think she never browses this site? Think she's never read any of your posts?

If you do, I think you're wrong. ;)

[Edcognito]

LOL yeah, like the limitations on the process, but that's my fault 'cause I didn't talk about them.

The more unlikely an event is, the more difficult it is to raise it to a reasonable probability. And it is impossible to raise any probability to 100% (or reduce it to 0%) no matter where it starts out.

(snippage)

Also, there's the question of what you really, truly want, Ed. Right now, you have a harmless obsession. If you were actually meeting with Alizée on anything like a regular basis, your wife might have a thing or three to say about it, no?

And finally, what makes you think you haven't been introduced to her? Think she never browses this site? Think she's never read any of your posts?

If you do, I think you're wrong. ;)


Well, I'll address your last point first - I have no idea what a "star" would do - I'll admit that right up front. All i can say is I strike me as funny, being affected in any way - by the thought that a person i'll never meet, from across the sea, 24 yrs. younger than me might read my post. I have to admit, i never even entertained the thought that she might read a post - and i just got a serious shiver down my back! :eek: :eek:

Now - are you saying you believe she does browse our forums? Maybe as a "lurker"?

I'm laughing at myself, because i think that would be SOOOOOO KEWL! I'm STILL finding all this "fan" stuff quite confusing and amusing. Still havn't gotten my head around the idea that I could be quite so affected. Not saying its bad in any way - just very, very different for me!


Your first point missed my point - that "meeting" Alizée (imho) is probably one of the most improbable, "possible" events i can imagine. I don't think that I would be able to carry on an intelligent conversation at first (see above about being a fan) and thats a hell of a way to make a "first impression"! ;)

My wife thinks i'm funny, and she's quite amused by me listening to this "Euro bubble-gum pop". And your right, if i were (by some major cosmic conjuction of the stars, Luck and the laws of improbablity and random chance) ever meeting with Alizée on a regular basis - my wife would have more than a "thing or three" to say about it!

But she needn't fear - I love her, and will continue to (Nine Yr. anniversary May 16th this year). I'm still "twitterpated" with my wife and always hope to be. I was just trying to point out the "improbablity" of my physically meeting Lili - that it was so vanishingly small...

I have enjoyed the Cosmic discussion so far - and back on thread?

1) Ghosts - no
2) UFO's - (in the classic sense) no
3) Alien Life - Yes (very probable imho).

Hell of a hijack, and i STILL got it back on topic! :)

Ed:cool:

[Deepwaters]

OK, continuing off-topic for just a moment:

Now - are you saying you believe she does browse our forums? Maybe as a "lurker"?


Oh, I'm quite certain of it. In fact, I'm sure she checks out all of the various fan sites regularly. This one would particularly draw her attention because:

1) It's in English, and she'd find that a fun way to improve her grasp of the language.

(Side note: I'm sticking to more formal French sites for now, like newspapers, because I want a grasp of proper grammar, spelling and syntax before diving into the more colloquial French of discussion boards. But I will do that eventually, and she's been studying English much longer than I've been studying French.)

2) It's an American site, and she has to be intrigued by fan activity in a country where, during her active career, she never made much impact, or even tried to.

So yes, I'm sure she's here fairly often. I always try to compose my posts with the expectation that she'll read them, although I doubt she's actually read all 400-odd of them. Because you never know.

OK, as you say, back on topic.

What I've been trying to get across here is that there's a difference between a phenomenon and the explanation for the phenomenon.

When we talk about "ghosts," what exactly do we mean? Do we mean seeing a visual image, feeling emotional vibes, hearing sounds, and so on? Or do we mean that the soul of a dead person is hanging around the place he/she died? The first is a phenomenon. The second is an explanation for that phenomenon.

I don't believe in "ghosts" in the second sense because I don't believe in the "soul" as that is usually thought of. But enough people have described the phenomenon that I do believe in that. I just think there's a different explanation for it.

Same with UFOs. These kind of "sightings" have, completely contrary to what someone suggested earlier, been going on for centuries. What's new is the idea that they represent visitors from another planet. Again, that's not the phenomenon, it's the explanation for the phenomenon. Is it the right one? I'm less skeptical about that than I am about souls of dead people, but not prepared to say that it is, either.

I've seen and experienced -- and done -- enough things myself to know that there are mysteries science currently has no handle on. But the popular explanations of some of them may not be the right ones.

[bt_bird_90]

Your first point missed my point - that "meeting" Alizée (imho) is probably one of the most improbable, "possible" events i can imagine.

The odds of having Alizée greet my at my front door when I wake up tomorrow morning are trillions to none, so as I see it, it most certainly won't happen twice, all the more reason to leave prepared with a smile on my face every day. :wub:

[thats amazazazing]

The odds of having Alizée greet my at my front door when I wake up tomorrow morning are trillions to none, so as I see it, it most certainly won't happen twice, all the more reason to leave prepared with a smile on my face every day. :wub:

i'll be nice and say 1 out of d 6.6 billion ^_^

[rcs]

i'll be nice and say 1 out of d 6.6 billion ^_^


Sooo, you're saying there's a chance....:D

[fsquared]

Some of this discussion seems to be in the direction of the anthropic cosmological principle. I can't summarize it adequately, so I'll link to wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle

[Deepwaters]

Some of this discussion seems to be in the direction of the anthropic cosmological principle. I can't summarize it adequately, so I'll link to wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle

There's a connection, but I'm going to disagree with something very fundamental from that article, namely that multiple universes are necessary for the SAP to operate as an explanation. All that is necessary is that multiple potential universes (or sets of natural laws) have existed at the instant of the Big Bang. It is not necessary that multiple universes exist now.

I'm also suggesting that at the instant of the Big Bang, the laws of physics as we know them were in flux. They did not exist as such. The laws of physics are descriptions of the way that energy, matter, space, and time behave, and at the instant of the Big Bang none of these existed. Thus, neither did the laws governing their behavior. All of these were set in the very first moments after the Big Bang, and could have emerged differently from what we have.

So in terms of the SAP, we live in a universe in which the wave function represented by that formation of natural law was conducive to the evolution of intelligent life, because otherwise we would be unable to ask the question. Universes in which the laws formed differently, and in which the question can't be asked, need not exist in reality; since they potentially existed at the time of the Big Bang, they have a virtual existence.

I was suggesting something stronger than that, though: an actual causative effect on the outcome of the Big Bang by the life that would potentially evolve later on, if the laws of nature developed so as to allow it. Since there existed at the time of the Big Bang a possibility of such life evolving, it had a virtual existence as well.

[fsquared]

One interpretation of what you said is that, say, there is a serial (whatever THAT means, if time only exists within the context of a single universe) set of Big Bangs, and only those ones that are conducive to life/observers/etc. actually are the ones that are "perceived". The others either come and go, or don't exist at all? I guess it's kind of the ultimate "if a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it" sort of situation. Heh, it's tricky to formulate an appropriate vocabulary for discussing such hypotheticals.

[Alizee_is_Scottish!]

who believes in ghosts and UFOs and other unexplained stuff? i tend to be agnostic towards these types of things.


Still don't understand 90% if this thread:(

Believe in:
Ghosts : No
UFO's : As in aliens visiting - no
Life on an another planet : Don't see why not

Not fully convinced Alizée is from this planet though, who (or what) ever formed her has to be more advanced than us mere humans.:D

[RMJ]

Now - are you saying you believe she does browse our forums? Maybe as a "lurker"?

Quite unlikely. Maybe stopped by if seen link and that's about it.

If you like her to read your posts, then go to post on on French board. Or maybe Mexican board. Those she might check out. Not that I think she speaks Spanish, but she might be interested what's going on there. AF she might stop buy, since it's been around for ages and has French section that would help he, but also would provide peek on international business.



2) It's an American site, and she has to be intrigued by fan activity in a country where, during her active career, she never made much impact, or even tried to.
What activity ? The number of American fans are roughly the same as it was 4 years ago. Handful.

[Drake498]

Alizée can read English? like learning to speak it and to read it are totally different opperations... do we know she can read all that we say on here?

[Joey_adore_Jung]

^ woah that just makes my paranoia go off the scale!!!! drake that could be the possibility so i will go with this HELLO Alizée HUGS AND KISSES CAN"T WAIT FOR THE NEW ALBUM!! :D:D:D:D

[RMJ]

Alizée can read English? like learning to speak it and to read it are totally different opperations... do we know she can read all that we say on here?

We know practically nothing of her English skills. Only thing we know is that she has tried to take English classes after she entered music business, and that she has been able to say couple basic phrases in English.

[nurvonic]

What activity ? The number of American fans are roughly the same as it was 4 years ago. Handful.

i have to disagree with that.

4 years ago, she was practically unknown in the US, maybe just a few fans. now with websites like youtube and google video that number has grown to more than a handful, im sure.

but wtf do i know? you're the gotdamn "how many fans are in America" expert :p

[nurvonic]

Still don't understand 90% if this thread:(



you're tellin me. i brought out the geeky side of people for sure.

[fsquared]

Well, with the rise of translate.google.com and so forth, it would be an easy matter for a French speaker to peruse these forums, just as the non-Francophones here do to the French boards.

Just remember, this is the internet, so don't say anything you wouldn't want your boss or mother-in-law to read, or to see on the front page of the New York Times tomorrow. :)

[Edcognito]

Well, with the rise of translate.google.com and so forth, it would be an easy matter for a French speaker to peruse these forums, just as the non-Francophones here do to the French boards.

Just remember, this is the internet, so don't say anything you wouldn't want your boss or mother-in-law to read, or to see on the front page of the New York Times tomorrow. :)

(joke follows - so DO NOT take it seriously)

"It was reported in Entertainment Weekly that the French Pop Sensation "Alizée" visited a little known fan site in America called "moi-alizee.us" the other day, and the posting rate LEAPED into the millions. Alizée has since taken a hiatus of un-determined length from the internet."

(end joke)

The Anthropic Principle sounds fishy to me. Last place i heard of "Multiple Universes" was Star Trek. :O

If the act of observing something changes it, how can we be certain that we've never observed another "universe"? BUT, because we observed it, it now looks just like ours, and popped out of existence? Physicists could be responsible for the deaths of Googles of Sentient Beings! WE MUST STOP THE MADNESS! STOP ALL RESEARCH!

All physicists must go live in caves in Tibet and contemplate their navels!

"Still don't understand 90% if this thread"

I have a grip on most of it, except for the formulae - At that point i throw in the towel!

High School Geometry FTL! :(


Ed:cool:

[CFHollister]

I have a grip on most of it, except for the formulae - At that point i throw in the towel!

haha... :p

[RMJ]

i have to disagree with that.

4 years ago, she was practically unknown in the US, maybe just a few fans. now with websites like youtube and google video that number has grown to more than a handful, im sure.
There were, and still are, plenty of Americans on AF and MF. All them been around for ages. There were plenty of Americans in her concerts.

Youtube doesn't create much new American fans since they are against foreign music in the first place. It's the attitude that needs to be changed, not the methods to get the music. And the attitude has not changed a bit in the past half a decade. French music has no markets in USA.

There's handful of American who are capable of accepting world music and those are the probable fans.

Look at Mexico. It was even worse for them 5 years ago. No-one knew who she was. And now they has the biggest fan base in the world. Because they are willing to try out foreign music.



but wtf do i know? you're the gotdamn "how many fans are in America" expert :p
You'd be too if you'd open your eyes.

[Joey_adore_Jung]

this Unexplained thread makes me feel really like stupid, comparing to all of my knowledge compared to all of yours.

[Deepwaters]

Oh, RMJ, there you go again.

About 10% of what you stated above was fact, and the rest was your interpretation of the facts. And as usual, you fill in any uncertainty with the most pessimistic assumptions remotely believable. I know better than to take that seriously.

Back to the anthropic principle, maybe that needs a little more explanation. The link to the Wikipedia article explains it pretty well, though. Basically, it's an answer to the question of why we see physical laws and physical conditions on this planet to fall within the narrow range that supports life.

The anthropic principle is actually a rebuttal to intelligent design. It holds that we see this apparent coincidence because it would have to be that way in 100% of the circumstances in which the questions can be asked. That is, there have to be intelligent living things in order to ask whether the conditions are appropriate for life, so the answer will always be "yes."

[nurvonic]

You'd be too if you'd open your eyes.

my eyes are open. except, i dont see how you believe alot of that.

[Deepwaters]

my eyes are open. except, i dont see how you believe alot of that.

He believes it because he begins with the assumption that it is true, and because it cannot at this time be conclusively proven false.

[CFHollister]

The number of American fans are roughly the same as it was 4 years ago.

This premise is demonstrably false in principle. Assuming we are talking about true fans, individuals who remain interested and loyal for the long haul, then the number of fans can not have decreased. In the intervening 4 years she has certainly gained a number (significant number, IMO) of new fans. It may be true that the number of American Alizée fans has never numbered above a "handfull;" but the notion that the number of her American fans has has not increased in the past 4 years is absurd, IMO.

Did an American Alizée fansite exist four years ago?... particularly one that has been gaining and facilitating new American members/fans (most of who have only discovered Alizée very recently)? No. these are recent developments, as are the numbers of new American fans.

[fsquared]

I have to disagree with RMJ's assessment of the American fanbase. New fans are generated all the time (see the testimonials in the Introduce Yourself, including my own) and the great majority of the ones who post here (admittedly a self-selecting group) have been generated by means that weren't even available 3-4 years ago, particularly YouTube. A lot of them stated that they'd never contemplated French music before, and etc. etc.

Similarly, in a country of 300 million, I think it is a vast overgeneralization to say "they" about anything. If you're talking about the Billboard top 40 dynamic as a whole, or massive commercial success, then yes, it is very difficult for non-English songs to chart. But that's completely different from whether her fan base in the US is growing.

My personal uninformed take is that the US market has such a high upfront cost that a lot of international performers just abandon it. Look at Kylie Minogue; after 2 albums here in the late 80s, she abandoned the market, despite her worldwide success elsewhere, and didn't come back until 2003. I don't think it was because she was "foreign" (though I don't know) but just that it wasn't cost-effective to promote in the US.

Comments welcome.

[RMJ]

This premise is demonstrably false in principle. Assuming we are talking about true fans, individuals who remain interested and loyal for the long haul, then the number of fans can not have decreased. In the intervening 4 years she has certainly gained a number (significant number, IMO) of new fans. It may be true that the number of American Alizée fans has never numbered above a "handfull;" but the notion that the number of her American fans has has not increased in the past 4 years is absurd, IMO.
Not absurd at all. Not all fans stays loyal over the years. I have seen many great fans left. Fans that was thought to stay fans forever. Without new fans, the total number of fans will decrease during time. It's inevitable.

The number of American fans might have increased little bit but it's still nothing more than handful. This forum is great example of it. This is supposed to be American forum and still half the people are outside America and most of Americans are inactive, "one time visitors" ( in "" because they might actually stay week or two before leaving forever) .

Of course not all will use forums ever, but so is with other people. So it gives good enough numbers of real popularity anyways, since it scales the same with all nationalities.

Did an American Alizée fansite exist four years ago?
Yes. MF and AF. Tho, they are both international fansites, not patriotic ones. But Americans are welcomed to them, too. And many has taken that opportunity.


... particularly one that has been gaining and facilitating new American members/fans (most of who have only discovered Alizée very recently)?
They have had constant flow of new members since the beginning. Americans among others.


No. these are recent developments, as are the numbers of new American fans.
What numbers ? This site has couple dozen American fans. Out of 250 million, that's not much.

[Deepwaters]

We know practically nothing of her English skills. Only thing we know is that she has tried to take English classes after she entered music business, and that she has been able to say couple basic phrases in English.

This is an example of what I mean, RMJ.

I'll start by correcting your facts. We know that she DID take English classes after entering the music business, not that she "tried to." And, we know that she has been able to say a couple of basic phrases in English and to understand the lyrics of her English songs.

It is true that, as far as verifiable knowledge is concerned, we know no more than this. But the implication of that ignorance is not, as you seem to suggest, that we can assume she does not know any more than this. It means only that we cannot assume anything. She could have anywhere from the minimal understanding you are suggesting to complete fluency. A more realistic assumption would be that she is somewhere between the two, and can carry on a reasonable conversation without, however, being mistaken in any way for a native speaker. Assuming anything at the extremes instead of that realistic assumption would require believing either that she gave up quarter-finished something she put considerable effort into in the past, or that she has put the kind of effort that usually goes along with actually spending lots of time in countries that use the language, which she hasn't AFAWK.

So it seems realistic to me to believe that she can get by in English, understand most of what's said and written, and make herself understood without speaking perfectly. Until I see some more evidence one way or another, that's what I'm going to assume is true.

She's been hiding from the public very successfully for four years. There are a lot of things we don't know. Another is how well she's learned to play an instrument, which we have heard rumors she was working on. The outcome could be anywhere from "Crap, I give up," to sufficient mastery to play the instrument (guitar? keyboard?) in concert.

Hell, she could have written half the songs on the new album herself for all we know. And it makes no sense at all, faced with this kind of ignorance, to jump immediately to the conclusion that things are as bad as they can possibly be, given what we know. In fact -- in reality -- they hardly ever are either as bad or as good as they can possibly be.

Pretty much the same with fans in the U.S. You start with the premise that Americans can't like foreign music, which if you knew anything about this country beyond your prejudices you would know is nonsense of the worst sort. There have in the past been rages in America for Latin American, Russian, Indian, and West Indies music, and that's just what comes off the top of my head. Why not French? No reason at all, really. As for the numbers of American Alizée fans at this time, there are only a handful that can be proven to exist. You observe this, and assume -- because it's what you want to believe, really -- that there are no more fans here than can be proven to exist, when in fact that is extremely unlikely. The greater probability, because that's how these things usually work, is that for every fan that can be proven to exist, there are a great many others that can't.

We'll see, I suppose. But since this started with your thoughts about Alizée's attitude towards her U.S. fan base, I will simply point out that we have no reason to believe -- and every reason not to believe -- that she shares your pessimistic appraisal either of that question or, quite honestly, of any other. It's a question of temperament here.

[fsquared]

Actually, even if the fanbase number remained constant, that would be remarkable, given the attrition, which would mean that new fans were being generated. In the old days, you either found out about music from the radio, MTV, or a friend or music shop owner or etc. If a performer was no longer getting label promotion, etc., that would be really crippling. The rise of YouTube, MySpace, and other social networking sites has in my opinion changed the equation significantly. In Alizée's case in particular, I suspect YouTube cannot be overestimated, because we have no choice but to factor her videogenicity (I'm neologizing here) prominently into the equation.

[RMJ]

This is an example of what I mean, RMJ.

I'll start by correcting your facts. We know that she DID take English classes after entering the music business, not that she "tried to." And, we know that she has been able to say a couple of basic phrases in English and to understand the lyrics of her English songs.
Wrong. She has mentioned that she has taken English classes but we have no idea how many and if she ever managed to finish them. We know nothing of her English knowledge.

Her English songs can be easily translated to French for her. She does not need good English knowledge to understand them, especially since it's Mylène who wrote them. She can explain her what they are about. Again, we know nothing about her English knowledge.



It is true that, as far as verifiable knowledge is concerned, we know no more than this.
Yes, finally you are accepting the facts. We know nothing about her English skills, except what we have seen and it's not much.



But the implication of that ignorance is not, as you seem to suggest, that we can assume she does not know any more than this. It means only that we cannot assume anything. She could have anywhere from the minimal understanding you are suggesting to complete fluency. A more realistic assumption would be that she is somewhere between the two, and can carry on a reasonable conversation without, however, being mistaken in any way for a native speaker.
If you have ever actually read my posts instead of trying to pick up the annoyances that you can stuck on, you'd know that I believe that she has some sort of knowledge on English. Simply because it's needed in music business. But that's just my assumption based on her occupation.

Regular French people still don't know much English. I have witnessed it with my own ears. I have been talking to young native French people, too. People under 18, in the age of Alizée, back in her active career. And many of them did not understand English. Couple maybe were too shy to try to speak it. Few that was able, was able barely able to carry a conversation. And couple that were talking good English. And that all was in Paris, where English is almost everyday life due to tourists. Even less people in other cities understands English. And same trend is seen on the net, just two days ago I had chat with French fan who spoke no English at all, and she is teenager, too.

We don't know Alizée's starting level in English when she started to take classes during her career. And we don't know if she ever finished them. We know nothing.



She's been hiding from the public very successfully for four years. There are a lot of things we don't know. Another is how well she's learned to play an instrument, which we have heard rumors she was working on. The outcome could be anywhere from "Crap, I give up," to sufficient mastery to play the instrument (guitar? keyboard?) in concert.
That rumor is as old as her career. And in concert we saw that it wasn't true (she was rumored to be learn guitar).



Hell, she could have written half the songs on the new album herself for all we know.
She could, but it's very unlikely. This album is very important for her, so it is good to let more experienced writers to help with it. Jérémy is the man to do it and other will help. Alizée will surely be part of it, tho. No doubt. I'm sure we will see her name in credits.



Pretty much the same with fans in the U.S. You start with the premise that Americans can't like foreign music, which if you knew anything about this country beyond your prejudices you would know is nonsense of the worst sort. There have in the past been rages in America for Latin American, Russian, Indian, and West Indies music, and that's just what comes off the top of my head. Why not French? No reason at all, really.
Tiny fraction of all. Much tinier percentage than in most countries (maybe Britain excluded).

And that view is shared by the Americans themselves. It's not my own idea. I have lots of friends from America, many of them not fans of Alizée, so they can give non biased opinion of French music. I have given them samples of course when the convo has come to music, and the result is in the most cases the same. They likes the music OK (if it happens to be the style they are into) but the final statement usually is that it won't work on America since it's foreign language.



As for the numbers of American Alizée fans at this time, there are only a handful that can be proven to exist. You observe this, and assume -- because it's what you want to believe, really -- that there are no more fans here than can be proven to exist, when in fact that is extremely unlikely.
Do you have trouble reading or are you just unwilling to read my posts ? I have clearly said how it is. Here is couple dozen fans and outside here is some more. Just like there is German fans on German board and few more outside it. As it is with Mexicans. French. Finnish. English. Russians. With the number of known fans you can tell how much there is outside. With "new countries" the ratio of fans on board and off board is smaller, since they are more active and more excited so they participate more. With "old countries", ratio is higher, because there is sleeping fans who has got bored of talking already.

If America is new country, then things are even worse than I assume them to be. America should be at least in level of Mexico, if you'd expect there to be any significant fan base in America. But there isn't. Just handful.



The greater probability, because that's how these things usually work, is that for every fan that can be proven to exist, there are a great many others that can't.
Yes, and that how it is.

But there's no need to talk about those non-known fans, since they exists every other nations, too. They doesn't change the statistics in one way or another. What matters is the known fans, from those you can see how popular she really is



We'll see, I suppose. But since this started with your thoughts about Alizée's attitude towards her U.S. fan base, I will simply point out that we have no reason to believe -- and every reason not to believe -- that she shares your pessimistic appraisal either of that question or, quite honestly, of any other. It's a question of temperament here.
And what it matters if she shares my opinion or not ? It's my opinion, and is based on what can be seen here and around the world. And I think I never mentioned her opinion here, nor compared it to any opinion of mine.

But if you want her opinion, the latest we know, is that she doesn't care about American markets. Fans she of course does like. Fan is fan, no matter where they come from.

[nurvonic]

where's bt_bird to crack a joke about whether or not there are more american fans than there were 4 years ago...

[bt_bird_90]

where's bt_bird to crack a joke about whether or not there are more american fans than there were 4 years ago...

No, there are no jokes to be made here! American fans are serious buisness.


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Fiscal profits seem to be up, I would conclude there are indeed more american fans then there were 4 years ago.

[Edcognito]

No, there are no jokes to be made here! American fans are serious buisness.


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Fiscal profits seem to be up, I would conclude there are indeed more american fans then there were 4 years ago.

Thank The Invisible Sky Being!

BT Pulled it out in STYLE! DUDE! That was an EXCELLENT joke! :)

RMJ and Deepwaters - I respect the hell out of both of you, and I really do admire your ability to express yourselves clearly and succinctly! HOWSOMEVER! Please don't argue, especially about/for/with or on a board dedicated to the Lovely Miss "Lili".....

BACK on TOPIC!

I still don't believe in Ghosts! :P

Ed:cool:

[nurvonic]

lol nicely done big bird. i knew you would pull through :p

[Deepwaters]

I still don't believe in Ghosts! :P

OK. What would you say caused the experiences that Drake described, if not a ghost.

That's not a rhetorical question. Assuming his experience did happen, and assuming it's not a ghost in the usual sense, what else could it be?

[Edcognito]

OK. What would you say caused the experiences that Drake described, if not a ghost.

That's not a rhetorical question. Assuming his experience did happen, and assuming it's not a ghost in the usual sense, what else could it be?

Without knowing him personally, and without making any stupid assumptions about anyones mental health - I would say (just off the top of my head) that its possible that he is "predisposed" to believe in ghosts. Therefore, in the state he described :

AS REQUESTED:
The one in Prison was at Eastern State Penitentiary was more towards the evening when i visted, the central 'hub' i guess is where you can look down all the halls of the prison similtaneously, i was hoping to see some sort of spectre but instead i felt as if i was always seeing something out of the corner of my eye, never being fast enough to fully look. It's not a strong account, but i strongly belive something or someone was there.

The second was creepy, i was in my friends basement where him and I with a few other friends had a party, most of them went home, but i stayed the night, i crashed on the futon. when i woke up, things were a little but normal otherwise. then someone walked past me, i assumed it was my friend but instead it was a woman, she was clothed but it was as if she had been completely sliced in half a couple times, i was dead silient, she looked at me then left. i got up and went over to my friend lying in his bed, i asked him later about what happened, he said that he'd seen her too, idk if that true but he described the same woman. he perceded to tell me that one of the poeple that once owned the house was murdered and then sliced and stuffed into the huge AC vent in the wall... I've slept over a couple other times at his house but haven't seen her recently at all

In the first instance, he clearly expresses a desire to observe "a spectre" - instead he had a "feeling" that there was "something or someone" there.

#1 - He had the experience
#2 - it was real
#3 - Ghosts and "spectres" aren't needed to adequately described the observed phenomena.

He was in a prison, in a believable (or suggestable) state of mind i was hoping to see some sort of spectre . Thats all it takes. You don't have to postulate any "para-normal" explanation for this. There were no observable (and i'm willing to bet, no recordable) phenomena - just "things that he couldn't quite see" and a feeling of something being there - no other explanation other than being in a prison in a receptive state of mind is needed to explain this.

As for his second experience, there are a couple of differnt things to keep in mind here:

#1 - There was a party the night before;

#2 - He already expressed a belief that "ghosts" might be possible;

#3 - There is no way (short of a time machine) to go back and rule out any possiblity that there may have been a conversation during the party the night before that he overheard and, conciously or not, paid attention to it, and remembering it concerning the previous occupants;

#4 - After waking to observe what he thought was his friend "but instead it was a woman, she was clothed but it was as if she had been completely sliced in half a couple times," he went to discuss it with his friend - but we have no way of confirming a complete lack of prior knowledge on his part of the event described by his friend.

#5 - Even if true about the previous occupant being sliced and stuffed in an AC vent in a wall, it would be very easy to prove or disprove by speaking with the local historical society or the local news source - most have archives where stories (especially grisly ones) are recorded - It sounds to me more like an urban legend.

#6 - No "para-normal" activities are needed to explain what transpired - the human brain is fully capable of creating, out of whole cloth if you will, experiences.

The simplest explenation for what occured is that he was tired, possibly already pre-disposed to believe a "para-normal" event, and in his tired (and just woken state) imagined the whole thing. That is NOT to say that an event didn't take place - just where the event took place....

Modern medicine, psychology and philosophy are just now coming to a greater understanding of the human brain's functions and abilities.

(((more to come))) i'm posting from work :(

Research has been done on various "Eastern" philosophies and principles, and documentation made on actuall changes in the brain brought on by meditation and training in these "Eastern" methods. There was a study released (within the last couple of years, i can't find the reference at the moment) which showed a statistical change in medical outcomes for various groups of people.

IIRC - One group of people were "serious" believers in religion. One group were avowed atheists (this group is smaller in America, and therefore the probabilaty of error was larger with this group) and a control group of "average" Americans (believers, but not devout).

The first group (believers) had a higher/better medical outcome when told that their religious group was praying for their recovery. The Atheists had better outcomes when told that their home / work / family situations were being attended to by friends. The average group of Americans had better outcomes with a combination of prayer/attention than without.

The conclusion that was drawn wasn't that a para-normal force was at work, rather that "worry and stress" were relieved when the person sick/faced with the medical crisis had thier stressors addressed. All three groups were divided into three groups - The "prayed for/attention group, not prayed for/no attention, and a control group of average support/attention/prayer.

So you see - there can be a completly normal explanation for these things!

[Alizee_is_Scottish!]

No, there are no jokes to be made here! American fans are serious buisness.


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Fiscal profits seem to be up, I would conclude there are indeed more american fans then there were 4 years ago.

Now that's funny :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
(And I understood it:) )

[Deepwaters]

OK, I'm going to suggest something here about the experiences that Drake described.

That they were caused by a "ghost" in the usual sense is not a necessary conclusion from what he described. By this I mean:

1) The dead person that the image resembled is not necessarily conscious of anything that is going on; and

2) The behavior of the image is not necessarily a complete and in-depth replica of the person it resembles, when she was alive.

Actually if I'm not mistaken, that second can be verified NOT to be true. It's more commonly an oversimplified image, doing the same actions over and over, almost like a movie clip.

However, what Drake described was an image that appeared to him before he knew about the events that took place which the image resembled. So, although it isn't necessarily a "ghost" in the common understanding, it's not something ordinary and not requiring explanation, either. There's a so-called "paranormal" element involved (although I hate that word).

[Drake498]

However, what Drake described was an image that appeared to him before he knew about the events that took place which the image resembled. So, although it isn't necessarily a "ghost" in the common understanding, it's not something ordinary and not requiring explanation, either. There's a so-called "paranormal" element involved (although I hate that word).
Thinking about it... not only the events i did not know beforehand, but i actually don't really know what that owner looked like either, whether it was the person that owned the house b4 or a random ghost being... it would be presumed that it was the owner considering the bizarre story but i have no actual verification of what this owner ever looked like... :confused:

I think the strongest accounts that i have of an angel/ghost/spirit are my personal accounts from my room and from when i was in Aussie

I know the prison one is just supposed, no proof (altough if you ever go to ESP in Philadelphia, its a good place to check out, a lot of history there) and the account from my friends basement is too bizarre for some to believe... however, even tho i don't have technical proof, i'm still here today, cuz i didn't commit suicide, and i truly felt comfort after talking with one in Australia, so those are the ones i don't have any real explanation for, hence the thread "The Unexplained"

[RMJ]

AS REQUESTED:
The one in Prison was at Eastern State Penitentiary was more towards the evening when i visted, the central 'hub' i guess is where you can look down all the halls of the prison similtaneously, i was hoping to see some sort of spectre but instead i felt as if i was always seeing something out of the corner of my eye, never being fast enough to fully look. It's not a strong account, but i strongly belive something or someone was there.
Typical situation. One just wants to believe there is something. When clearly eyes and all the other senses tells that there isn't anything. It's denying reality. And not uncommon at all. I think everyone has situation like this during life.




The second was creepy, i was in my friends basement where him and I with a few other friends had a party, most of them went home, but i stayed the night, i crashed on the futon. when i woke up, things were a little but normal otherwise. then someone walked past me, i assumed it was my friend but instead it was a woman, she was clothed but it was as if she had been completely sliced in half a couple times, i was dead silient, she looked at me then left. i got up and went over to my friend lying in his bed, i asked him later about what happened, he said that he'd seen her too, idk if that true but he described the same woman. he perceded to tell me that one of the poeple that once owned the house was murdered and then sliced and stuffed into the huge AC vent in the wall... I've slept over a couple other times at his house but haven't seen her recently at all
Yea, we used to tell these stories too when we were kids. Nothing was real of course, but they makes nice stories.

Some of them became reality for us too. It shows how easy it is to manipulate human mind. I had good friend with whom I was a lot at school. We came up with ghost stories and couple other stories, too, at some point, especially one of them stayed alive. Funnily enough, the friend of mine took those stories so seriously that he started to believe them himself. After years telling the story to others, he couldn't tell the difference between reality and the story himself either. If you'd ask about that story from him, I bet that even know he'd still put me in the story, in the place where I have never been in my life. Not even close.






Another case of ghost are of course simple brain anomalies. I have had these, too. I have seen even Alizée to appear as a "ghost". I have seen her clearly in the middle of day that I could swore it was her. And still, I know it wasn't. And yet, there she was, in front of me. Another case is when I watched her in my room for 6 hours (and kept seeing her in several occasion after that during next day or two), being half a sleep, half awake (possibly sleep paralyzed). She was real as anything in that room, but didn't care about physics laws what so ever. If I didn't know that it was my tired brains that was doing it, I might easily think I saw a ghost. Especially if it were someone else than Alizée. But I know it was my own health that did it, it was simply lack of dream in several days that caused it.

[Deepwaters]

I have seen even Alizée to appear as a "ghost". I have seen her clearly in the middle of day that I could swore it was her. And still, I know it wasn't. And yet, there she was, in front of me. Another case is when I watched her in my room for 6 hours (and kept seeing her in several occasion after that during next day or two), being half a sleep, half awake (possibly sleep paralyzed). She was real as anything in that room, but didn't care about physics laws what so ever. If I didn't know that it was my tired brains that was doing it, I might easily think I saw a ghost. Especially if it were someone else than Alizée. But I know it was my own health that did it, it was simply lack of dream in several days that caused it.

There's something incredibly ironic about your attitude toward this, RMJ. But that I'll reserve.

OK, to begin with, let's agree that Alizée was not physically in the room on those occasions. Let's further agree that, if you were sleep deprived at the time, this undoubtedly contributed to the vividness of the experience, and maybe in some sense "caused" the experience (meaning you would not have had the same exact experience under other physical conditions).

(I'm assuming when you say "being half asleep, half awake," you mean that you were in that condition, not that she seemed to be.)

And finally, since Alizée is still alive at this time, let's agree that you did not see her ghost. ;)

There remain some questions. What did she do? What, if anything, did she tell you? Did you receive any nonverbal impressions? How did you feel about it? Did the experience produce any changes in you that you can detect? If so, do you feel these changes were good or bad? (Or neither particularly?)

[Alizee_is_Scottish!]

An even bigger test for you. Try and expain these. Or at least why human beings would do this:confused: :confused: :confused:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szedvUhPxfY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsfytIJA5so

Is the first one a Borat stylee piss take????

Is the second one a "Chas n Dave / cockney" stylee piss take???

Now they are truly unexplained.:mad:

[Edcognito]

I posted quite a bit earlier - i had to break it up - because i would write something, then get called away - then come back and not be logged in. :(

So i posted quite a bit, you may want to go back an re-read - :)

I look forward to the replys! :)


Ed:cool:

[Edcognito]

OK, I'm going to suggest something here about the experiences that Drake described.

That they were caused by a "ghost" in the usual sense is not a necessary conclusion from what he described. By this I mean:

1) The dead person that the image resembled is not necessarily conscious of anything that is going on; and

2) The behavior of the image is not necessarily a complete and in-depth replica of the person it resembles, when she was alive.

Actually if I'm not mistaken, that second can be verified NOT to be true. It's more commonly an oversimplified image, doing the same actions over and over, almost like a movie clip.

However, what Drake described was an image that appeared to him before he knew about the events that took place which the image resembled. So, although it isn't necessarily a "ghost" in the common understanding, it's not something ordinary and not requiring explanation, either. There's a so-called "paranormal" element involved (although I hate that word).

The highlighted part cannot be proven true without some way of determining he had NO WAY of having any prior knowledge of the event, either from hearing his towns history, conversations he may have had and forgotten, or from conversations that he "overheard" in passing, so to speak.

Again - without some kind of verifiable proof - there is no need to posit any kind of "non-normal" explanation for an event. Just that the event can't be explained.

Extrodinary claims require Extrodinary proofs!

Ed:cool:

[Deepwaters]

The simplest explenation for what occured is that he was tired


A factor. I'll come back to that.


possibly already pre-disposed to believe a "para-normal" event,


A factor ONLY in the explanations he might give for it after the fact, NOT in the experience itself.


and in his tired (and just woken state) imagined the whole thing.


When we're talking about events that have no measurable physical components, the phrase "imagined the whole thing" loses all meaning. Of course he "imagined the whole thing," in the sense that he saw nothing with his physical eyes, but that isn't the question. The question is why he did, and what it meant.


The conclusion that was drawn wasn't that a para-normal force was at work, rather that "worry and stress" were relieved when the person sick/faced with the medical crisis had thier stressors addressed.


But this begs the question. Why does relieving stress have an effect on health? There are a great many perfectly "normal" experiences in life which aren't all that "normal." We say they are because we're familiar with them, not because we understand them.


The highlighted part cannot be proven true without some way of determining he had NO WAY of having any prior knowledge of the event


How strong a proof do you insist upon? Is this an "extraordinary claim" for you, requiring "extraordinary proof"? Or will ordinary proof suffice?

Drake could easily remember whether he had had a serious conversation about the murdered woman the night before. I'm assuming that can be ruled out, so what we're left with is the possibility of an offhand remark that he didn't consciously hear. And while that can't be entirely ruled out in Drake's case, there are similar cases where it can.

As I said in my first post on this thread, I've never actually seen a ghost myself. However, I've had enough telepathic, mystical, and similar experiences -- on a daily basis, actually -- to make the claim of an apparitional experience having some nontrivial significance an ordinary claim for me, requiring only ordinary proof. (The claim of it being an actual "ghost" in the common-understanding sense is something else again.)

[Edcognito]

I don't know how to break a quote up the way you did - so I'll have to copy and paste! :(

Deepwaters said:
A factor ONLY in the explanations he might give for it after the fact, NOT in the experience itself.

Actually, yes, because if the experience was NOT actually outside of himself, then his beliefs could be the source entirely! :)

If he was "primed" to see something, and on edge from the environment, there is no reason from what was said to believe that he did not "create" the experience inside himself, and that no outside influence/force or energy was involved at all.

[Edcognito]

Deepwaters said:
(When we're talking about events that have no measurable physical components, the phrase "imagined the whole thing" loses all meaning.
Of course he "imagined the whole thing," in the sense that he saw nothing with his physical eyes, but that isn't the question. The question is why he did, and what it meant.)

Sorry sir, but "imagined the whole thing" does NOT loose its meaning. It means that there was no outside elements to what he experienced, rather, it was entirely internal. Now, whether it means anything at all and why he experienced that, would probably keep Psychologists in work for decades! :)

I've worked at a Hospital as a Security Officer for 14 years + now, and i've seen FAR too many people, who, for various reasons, converse with, or see things that aren't there for the rest of us, to have any disrespect for the Psychiatric profession (not implying that you do - just stating my experiences). Someone high on a psychadelic drug, experiences things that anyone who hasn't done it, will not be able to comprehend. But that doesn't require any "para-normal" explenation.

:)

Ed:cool:

[Edcognito]

But this begs the question. Why does relieving stress have an effect on health? There are a great many perfectly "normal" experiences in life which aren't all that "normal." We say they are because we're familiar with them, not because we understand them.

One of the things (I would guess in the last 10 years) that has been proven, is that Stress is bad for the body. Relieving stress, whether through prayer, meditation, or the surety that your issues are being addressed competently, assists the healing process. If you need a complete biologic/neurologic explanation, i can't give it to you, i'm not educated enough! :) However, the point is that it was "stress relief", and not some "mystical/religous/para-normal" force at work.


How strong a proof do you insist upon? Is this an "extraordinary claim" for you, requiring "extraordinary proof"? Or will ordinary proof suffice?

Drake could easily remember whether he had had a serious conversation about the murdered woman the night before. I'm assuming that can be ruled out, so what we're left with is the possibility of an offhand remark that he didn't consciously hear. And while that can't be entirely ruled out in Drake's case, there are similar cases where it can.

As I said in my first post on this thread, I've never actually seen a ghost myself. However, I've had enough telepathic, mystical, and similar experiences -- on a daily basis, actually -- to make the claim of an apparitional experience having some nontrivial significance an ordinary claim for me, requiring only ordinary proof. (The claim of it being an actual "ghost" in the common-understanding sense is something else again.)


In my humble opinion, claims of Ghosts, UFOs, Alien Life, Religious Claims and Sasquatch are all "Extrodinary Claims". You say that you've had "telepathic, mystical, and similar experiences" - Those are Extrodinary - not the usuall day-to-day experiences of the majority of the world deals with. If some objective, verifiable, repeatable proof could be offered, then i would be more than willing, i would be EAGER to "suspend my disbelief". I'm not saying you havn't had these experiences, just that I don't believe for myself that they have any extrodinary explenations! :)

[Edcognito]

An even bigger test for you. Try and expain these. Or at least why human beings would do this:confused: :confused: :confused:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szedvUhPxfY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsfytIJA5so

Is the first one a Borat stylee piss take????

Is the second one a "Chas n Dave / cockney" stylee piss take???

Now they are truly unexplained.:mad:

:(

I'm sorry -i'm at work and can't activate the linkies! :( I'll check them out tomorrow as I have time! :)

Ed:cool:

[Zack -Alizee Lover-]

Quite unlikely. Maybe stopped by if seen link and that's about it.

If you like her to read your posts, then go to post on on French board. Or maybe Mexican board. Those she might check out. Not that I think she speaks Spanish, but she might be interested what's going on there. AF she might stop buy, since it's been around for ages and has French section that would help he, but also would provide peek on international business.



What activity ? The number of American fans are roughly the same as it was 4 years ago. Handful.

I think she just watches how many Smilies we use on each post.
Mexican board? i guess its more probable for HER to visit AF and of course AAlliance...

Someone from her staff who prolly knows spanish will tell her whats going on here in Mexico.

[Edcognito]

There's something incredibly ironic about your attitude toward this, RMJ. But that I'll reserve.

OK, to begin with, let's agree that Alizée was not physically in the room on those occasions. Let's further agree that, if you were sleep deprived at the time, this undoubtedly contributed to the vividness of the experience, and maybe in some sense "caused" the experience (meaning you would not have had the same exact experience under other physical conditions).

(I'm assuming when you say "being half asleep, half awake," you mean that you were in that condition, not that she seemed to be.)

And finally, since Alizée is still alive at this time, let's agree that you did not see her ghost. ;)

There remain some questions. What did she do? What, if anything, did she tell you? Did you receive any nonverbal impressions? How did you feel about it? Did the experience produce any changes in you that you can detect? If so, do you feel these changes were good or bad? (Or neither particularly?)


If someone could show me, BEFORE HAND - where someone had this kind of experience and gained some verifiable, substantiative knowledge of the subject (or any other subject), not availiable in any other form or from any other source, i would consider this to be solid proof of an apparition, outside something that the human mind could not create on its own.

Ed:cool:

[Deepwaters]

I don't know how to break a quote up the way you did - so I'll have to copy and paste! :(


Here's how to do that:

When you want to start a quote, type "quote" inside brackets. When you want to end the quote, type "/quote" inside brackets.


Actually, yes, because if the experience was NOT actually outside of himself, then his beliefs could be the source entirely! :)


As with "imagined the whole thing," the phrase "outside of himself" here is one without meaning. We begin with the recognition that there is nothing physical, at least not in the ordinary sense of that word, causing this. It is not a matter of the senses. He does not literally see anything; there is no light impacting his retina and generating optic-nerve signals; in the strictest sense of the word, this is a hallucination.

But that's not the question. The question is whether it's a hallucination with significance.

A mere cognitive belief cannot generate an experience of this nature. What it can do, though, is make one disposed to accept one or another explanation afterwards. Thus, RMJ is inclined to dismiss his hallucination of Alizée being in the room as of no significance (in which I think he's wrong), merely because he can offer an explanation of it in physiological terms. (Actually, any such experience will always involve brain activity, and hence always have some causative physiological factor or other. This means nothing.) Drake, on the other hand, is inclined to accept his experience in other terms. These conclusions after the fact are products of their respective belief systems. But both of them had experiences that are, in some ways, similar, despite those different belief systems.

About "extraordinary proof," I meant simply that if you do not share this kind of experience, you will see it as much stranger than if you do, and require a stronger degree of proof. In which case there's not much to be said except that you're entitled to your belief. After all the things I've gone through, there is absolutely no possibility whatsoever that I can dismiss the possibility of a significant apparitional experience, even though strictly speaking I've never had one. It's an ordinary claim to me, and so I require only ordinary proof.

[Deepwaters]

If someone could show me, BEFORE HAND - where someone had this kind of experience and gained some verifiable, substantiative knowledge of the subject (or any other subject), not availiable in any other form or from any other source, i would consider this to be solid proof of an apparition, outside something that the human mind could not create on its own.


You posted this in response to my questions to RMJ about his Alizée-in-the-room experience, so I need to clarify that what I'm looking for is not knowledge of Alizée that resulted, but rather SELF-knowledge and change in outlook. There's a reason why I would think that far more likely from such an experience.

[Deepwaters]

i guess its more probable for HER to visit AF and of course AAlliance...

I have no doubt at all that she DOES visit those sites, and it's also not unlikely that she spends more time there than here. I did not mean to suggest anything to the contrary earlier, or that I think she comes here exclusive of other fan sites. Why would she? If that was what came across, I apologize for the confusion.

[Edcognito]

You posted this in response to my questions to RMJ about his Alizée-in-the-room experience, so I need to clarify that what I'm looking for is not knowledge of Alizée that resulted, but rather SELF-knowledge and change in outlook. There's a reason why I would think that far more likely from such an experience.

I totally mis-understood where you were going with this - my bad! :)

I guess i was trying to get to proving/disproving that it "actually" occured - as in independent of RMJ's conciousness. Did he gain any outside knowledge that couldn't be obtained by other (normal) means - which is (now that i've re-read your post) is NOT where you went at all!

Lack of sleep causes mis-cues! :)

Ed:D

[lead2gold]

Deepwaters, I'm afraid RMJ is correct. What he was experiencing was almost certainly what is known as Hypnagogic hallucination. Nothing paranormal about it, in fact, fairly common for some people, especially when they have not gotten much sleep recently. Its a limbo state while the brain moves into the sleep cycle.

[Alizee_is_Scottish!]

There remain some questions. What did she do? What, if anything, did she tell you? Did you receive any nonverbal impressions? How did you feel about it? Did the experience produce any changes in you that you can detect? If so, do you feel these changes were good or bad? (Or neither particularly?)

Deepwaters, the highlighted part above is what I would call reflective practice, something I was taught in my nursing course. So am I right in presuming you are using it to analyse what I would (in my case) call dreams and nightmares?

I'm with Ed on this one. Seen far too many patients with 'brain malfunctions' (be it drugs / booze / head trauma / dementia and so on) to underestimate the power of the mind, rather than believing in the 'unexpalined' side of things. Have also been very tired and very scared at times in my own life to know what can happen in those situations to my own mind.

Like you say, we are all entitled to our beliefs, and I would be interested to hear what you feel you have learnt from your experiences?

[Edcognito]

Here's how to do that:

When you want to start a quote, type "quote" inside brackets. When you want to end the quote, type "/quote" inside brackets.



As with "imagined the whole thing," the phrase "outside of himself" here is one without meaning. We begin with the recognition that there is nothing physical, at least not in the ordinary sense of that word, causing this. It is not a matter of the senses. He does not literally see anything; there is no light impacting his retina and generating optic-nerve signals; in the strictest sense of the word, this is a hallucination.

But that's not the question. The question is whether it's a hallucination with significance.

A mere cognitive belief cannot generate an experience of this nature. What it can do, though, is make one disposed to accept one or another explanation afterwards. Thus, RMJ is inclined to dismiss his hallucination of Alizée being in the room as of no significance (in which I think he's wrong), merely because he can offer an explanation of it in physiological terms. (Actually, any such experience will always involve brain activity, and hence always have some causative physiological factor or other. This means nothing.) Drake, on the other hand, is inclined to accept his experience in other terms. These conclusions after the fact are products of their respective belief systems. But both of them had experiences that are, in some ways, similar, despite those different belief systems.

About "extraordinary proof," I meant simply that if you do not share this kind of experience, you will see it as much stranger than if you do, and require a stronger degree of proof. In which case there's not much to be said except that you're entitled to your belief. After all the things I've gone through, there is absolutely no possibility whatsoever that I can dismiss the possibility of a significant apparitional experience, even though strictly speaking I've never had one. It's an ordinary claim to me, and so I require only ordinary proof.


[quote]
We begin with the recognition that there is nothing physical, at least not in the ordinary sense of that word, causing this. [quote]

I didn't start with that understanding! :O I was assuming he (Drake) was explaining (and claiming) to have had exposure to some spirit/form/energy that existed outside of himself. (Drake - sorry to discuss you like your not here - I do know your reading these, and mean NO disrespect to you at all sir!)

I guess i thought the whole ghost thing was understood to mean the trapped, lost or otherwise misplaced soul of someone who had died, whos soul then appeared to someone, or impacted them (voices, whispers, touch, sight whatever) in some way.



[quote] A mere cognitive belief cannot generate an experience of this nature. [quote]

This is where we disagree (and it only took 9 pages to get to!) - I firmly believe that "BELIEF" may not generate (in and of itself) this type of experience, rather that a believer would have a mental experience and attribute it to outside forces.

Whether in the prison, in his friends house/basement, or in the field - any of these events could have been brought on by outside stressors/factors in his life, and have NOTHING whatsoever to do with ghosts / spirits / apparitions / doppelgangers, whatever: The experience (while seeming to be a real experience) occurs entirely within the mind of the observer. Therefore - the cognitive belief is not in itself the cause of the experience, rather it is the avenue the experience takes! Without the belief, there is no experience!

[quote]
(Actually, any such experience will always involve brain activity, and hence always have some causative physiological factor or other. This means nothing.) [quote]

Heh! This is the ENTIRE meaning! :O How can it mean nothing if its all in the mind?! If the experience can be explained with some causative physiological factor, why look OUTSIDE the mind for a cause? I'm losing you here! :)


Ed:cool:

Getting back to your earlier question - I don't believe in ghosts/esp/telekenisis/ufo's etc., because i havn't seen anything occur that cannot be explained as the actions of the mind, fraud or wishfull thinking! :)

I would LOVE to have ANY of these things proven, I think that would be just so cool! :)

Ed:cool:

[RMJ]

Mexican board? i guess its more probable for HER to visit AF and of course AAlliance...
Yeah, she quite likely visits those time to time. But I'm sure she could stop by to Mexican board, too. She surely have certain amount of interest on it.

Not to really see what's going on in Mexico but just to peek in and see hows it like. She can find info about Mexico from French boards, too, if she needs to know something.


There's something incredibly ironic about your attitude toward this, RMJ. But that I'll reserve.

OK, to begin with, let's agree that Alizée was not physically in the room on those occasions. Let's further agree that, if you were sleep deprived at the time, this undoubtedly contributed to the vividness of the experience, and maybe in some sense "caused" the experience (meaning you would not have had the same exact experience under other physical conditions).

(I'm assuming when you say "being half asleep, half awake," you mean that you were in that condition, not that she seemed to be.)

And finally, since Alizée is still alive at this time, let's agree that you did not see her ghost. ;)

There remain some questions. What did she do? What, if anything, did she tell you? Did you receive any nonverbal impressions? How did you feel about it? Did the experience produce any changes in you that you can detect? If so, do you feel these changes were good or bad? (Or neither particularly?)
You can read the full story from he dream thread on AF. It's not even old so it's easy to find.

And the "ghost" being Alizée was the first clear clue that it was just a dream or hallucination, like I said. I never thought Lili would be ghost.

And like I said, if it were some random person, then could have wondered it more, but even then the result would be the obvious conclusion.

And out of curiosity... Why couldn't Lili be ghost ? Why ghost needs to be dead ? If you are so aware of rules of ghosts, then why not show one to us, too. Since without that, it's nothing but assumption without proof that ghost needs to be dead. There's no any physical evidence of anything that even closely reminds of ghosts so you can't say if they are dear or alive if they exists (which by current knowledge is not the case).





How strong a proof do you insist upon? Is this an "extraordinary claim" for you, requiring "extraordinary proof"? Or will ordinary proof suffice?
Solid proof.

Since no ghost nor any other paranormal phenomena has ever been proven to exist. Without proof, it's nothing but just another story...

[SupaKrupa]

I haven't read all of this, so I won't know if it's relevant or not. Hope it helps lol:

Once upon a time, I did not know how to do a type of maths question. I think it was on coordinate geometry. I went to sleep, dreamt about it and actually woke up knowing how to do it.

[RMJ]

Your brains finally processed what you had learned.

That's how it supposed to work in the first place. That's why sleeping is important, it gives brains time to arrange the gathered knowledge, and to forget unnecessary information.

[SupaKrupa]

But I don't even know if I learnt it... I wasn't a very obedient, attentitive student...

[RMJ]

Well, obviously you did. If you didn't then you wouldn't know how to do it.

[Drake498]

Actually if I'm not mistaken, that second can be verified NOT to be true. It's more commonly an oversimplified image, doing the same actions over and over, almost like a movie clip.

However, what Drake described was an image that appeared to him before he knew about the events that took place which the image resembled. So, although it isn't necessarily a "ghost" in the common understanding, it's not something ordinary and not requiring explanation, either. There's a so-called "paranormal" element involved (although I hate that word).
Thinking about it... not only the events i did not know beforehand, but i actually don't really know what that owner looked like either, whether it was the person that owned the house b4 or a random ghost being... it would be presumed that it was the owner considering the bizarre story but i have no actual verification of what this owner ever looked like... :confused:

I think the strongest accounts that i have of an angel/ghost/spirit are my personal accounts from my room and from when i was in Aussie

I know the prison one is just supposed, no proof (altough if you ever go to ESP in Philadelphia, its a good place to check out, a lot of history there) and the account from my friends basement is too bizarre for some to believe... however, even tho i don't have technical proof, i'm still here today, cuz i didn't commit suicide, and i truly felt comfort after talking with one in Australia, so those are the ones i don't have any real explanation for, hence the thread "The Unexplained"

Don't know if you missed this Deepwaters ;)

[Deepwaters]

You can read the full story from he dream thread on AF. It's not even old so it's easy to find.


Well, but I'm asking you here, now, certain specific questions, which I notice you didn't answer. Instead, you answered other questions that I didn't ask.


And the "ghost" being Alizée was the first clear clue that it was just a dream or hallucination, like I said. I never thought Lili would be ghost.


The question isn't whether it was a dream or hallucination. Since Alizée definitely wasn't physically in the room, it could not have been the alternative, which is physical sensation. So of course it was a dream or hallucination. But what I'm saying here is that the word "just" doesn't automatically belong in front of that. Sometimes dreams and hallucinations are more than "just" dreams and hallucinations. They're still dreams and hallucinations, though.

Which is why I asked the questions I did. Which, again, you didn't answer.


And out of curiosity... Why couldn't Lili be ghost ? Why ghost needs to be dead ?


I was going by the usual popular idea of ghosts. Actually, though, you're quite right. It could have been a phenomenon similar to a ghost, although not quite identical since it wasn't location-specific.


Solid proof.


But "solid" means different things in different contexts. The evidence we consider "solid" for some claims is stronger than what we require for others, because they require more adjustments in our thinking, more changes to the view we hold of the world. (Or sometimes because we don't want to believe them, or because we do.)

I don't need as much proof of Drake's claim as you do, because this sort of thing happens all the time to me. It's normal and everyday. I'm inclined to accept it just on his word. Now, if someone brought me a story of, say, the current U.S. administration presenting a budget to Congress calling for an increase in the minimum wage, increased funding for education, a phase-out of fossil-fuel subsidies, and a reduced military budget, that would be an extraordinary claim and I would need to see some very solid proof indeed that the document was not a forgery! (And even then I might search for a more plausible explanation, like that the pres had been kidnapped by aliens and an android left in his place.) ;)

This is what I'm saying. If you regard something as an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary proof, there is not much point in trying to present proof. And so I'm not inclined to try. OTOH, I am inclined to explore the parameters of your Alizée-in-the-room experience, because it intrigues me. So I wish you would answer the questions I asked earlier.

[Deepwaters]

SupaKrupa: I'm not sure RMJ is right about the function of sleep, I think it's more complicated than that, but he's probably right about what happened with your math stuff, unless this was something that had never been covered in class, that you were supposed to study on your own, and that you never did.

Drake: Yes, I saw it. Thanks.

[RMJ]

SupaKrupa: I'm not sure RMJ is right about the function of sleep, I think it's more complicated than that, but he's probably right about what happened with your math stuff, unless this was something that had never been covered in class, that you were supposed to study on your own, and that you never did.
It's one of sleeps purpose. Not the only one.

But for processing thoughts, it's very important one. And there's clear evidence of it, since it's studied a lot. Of course it's not yet fully clear how all happens but the main lines are clear.


Well, but I'm asking you here, now, certain specific questions, which I notice you didn't answer. Instead, you answered other questions that I didn't ask.
And you did not read the dream. So blame yourself for not getting answers.



The question isn't whether it was a dream or hallucination. Since Alizée definitely wasn't physically in the room, it could not have been the alternative, which is physical sensation.
I never implied her to be physically there. Of course it was dream/hallucination or some other abnormal brain activity. That was clear since the beginning. Or well, as soon as I was able to take control of myself again. Till then, it was as real as the pain if I hit my head to wall right now.



So of course it was a dream or hallucination. But what I'm saying here is that the word "just" doesn't automatically belong in front of that. Sometimes dreams and hallucinations are more than "just" dreams and hallucinations. They're still dreams and hallucinations, though.

And what else they could be ?




But "solid" means different things in different contexts. The evidence we consider "solid" for some claims is stronger than what we require for others, because they require more adjustments in our thinking, more changes to the view we hold of the world. (Or sometimes because we don't want to believe them, or because we do.)

I don't need as much proof of Drake's claim as you do, because this sort of thing happens all the time to me. It's normal and everyday. I'm inclined to accept it just on his word.
Typical nonsense what is told when asked proof of these stories.

No one ever got anything. And how could they, since nothing happened.

It's all in their head.

Show us one of these ghost or any paranormal phenomena that is real and exists, and you'll become famous and rich man.

[lead2gold]

Deepwaters, I'm afraid RMJ is correct. What he was experiencing was almost certainly what is known as Hypnagogic hallucination. Nothing paranormal about it, in fact, fairly common for some people, especially when they have not gotten much sleep recently. Its a limbo state while the brain moves into the sleep cycle.

I felt the need to quote myself, I think it may have been lost in all the larger posts.
But like I said, this is something that is perfectly explainable, so why do you insist on a "paranormal" explanation for it?

For a quick summary of what Hypnagogic hallucination is:
http://neurology.health-cares.net/hypnagogic-hallucination.php

For more you can use Google. ;)

[Deepwaters]

Deepwaters, I'm afraid RMJ is correct. What he was experiencing was almost certainly what is known as Hypnagogic hallucination.


We are not disagreeing about that. We are disagreeing about whether hypnagogic hallucination is something that can always be dismissed as without significance other than the medical.

There is no paranormal explanation for why RMJ had this experience. But the content of it may be another story.

[Deepwaters]

Show us one of these ghost or any paranormal phenomena that is real and exists, and you'll become famous and rich man.

No, I'll simply provoke a controversy as those determined to reject the idea squirm about desperately trying to find excuses to dismiss the evidence. That's what's always happened before, and it's what will continue to happen until we have reached a point where the idea doesn't threaten. I see no reason to go there again.

I looked on the dream thread at Alizee.forum, but it was very long. Can you give me an idea of about what date you posted it, so I can narrow the search down?

[Deepwaters]

OK, never mind RMJ, I found it. Also some other dreams of yours. Cool stuff.

This pretty much confirms what I was thinking; however -- I don't think I'll go into that any further.

Anyway, I recommend to anyone going to that thread, starting at the end of the discussion, and going back and checking out RMJ's Alizée dreams, the real dreams as well as that experience. Very interesting stuff.

[RMJ]

No, I'll simply provoke a controversy as those determined to reject the idea squirm about desperately trying to find excuses to dismiss the evidence. That's what's always happened before, and it's what will continue to happen until we have reached a point where the idea doesn't threaten. I see no reason to go there again.
Lol.... what evidence ? There is none. Never been.

[Deepwaters]

Lol.... what evidence ? There is none. Never been.

Suit yourself, dude. :rolleyes:

It's impossible to argue with an attitude like that, so why try? Anyway, believing there's no evidence hasn't stopped you from presenting some yourself, so it really doesn't matter. Carry on.

[lefty12357]

Well if anyone can find reasonable evidence they can get rich.

http://skepdic.com/randi.html

[Deepwaters]

Not that way, they can't. James Randi is a con artist and a fraud.

I'll give you two examples.

As part of his ongoing feud with Uri Geller (who is also a con artist and a fraud), Randi once duplicated one of Geller's radio shows. Geller had done this thing where he called on his radio audience to concentrate on broken appliances and try to fix them psychically. The listeners could then call in to the station with the results.

Please note: Geller claimed the entire time that the listeners were the ones fixing the appliances. He did not claim that he was doing it himself.

Randi's duplication of the performance was done by an associate, later described by Randi as "about as psychic as a piece of shirt cardboard." Randi's associates got the same results Geller did, and he claimed that this disproved Geller's claim.

What's wrong with this claim is that, since Geller didn't claim to be doing the repairs himself replacing him with someone who doesn't claim to be psychic and getting the same result proves absolutely nothing.

(Further note: Geller's radio show WAS a con scam; I'm not suggesting otherwise. Only that Randi's was, too.)

Second example. On a TV show Randi put on years ago, he showed a film clip of the Latin American surgeon who called himself "Arigo," who was famous for miraculous cures using only a knife, with no anaesthetic, no proper surgical environment, etc. The psychic abilities alleged for him involve enhancement of actual surgery, done with an actual cutting instrument.

Randi, to refute this, took a volunteer from the audience, and performed a completely different procedure, done by a completely different set of "psychic surgeons" (these from the Philippines), using palmed animal blood and sleight-of-hand. Of course, since he didn't repeat Arigo's procedure (lucky for his volunteer!), this proved nothing.

But misdirection is the stage magician's stock-in-trade, after all.

As for the contest, the catch is that Randi and his challenger must agree on the terms by which the test is to be conducted. Randi is free to reject any test that has any chance of succeeding, and of course he will. Either his challenger is stupid enough to fall for this, or he is not, but either way Randi will not lose his money. It's only the illusion of a test, not a true test, and the money (which is actually irrelevant to the test itself) is offered as, again, a form of misdirection.

Randi is fine for entertainment. Otherwise, he should be ignored.

[RMJ]

It's impossible to argue with an attitude like that, so why try?
All I ask is one single evidence... one tiny little evidence would be enough.


Anyway, believing there's no evidence hasn't stopped you from presenting some yourself, so it really doesn't matter. Carry on.
It's not my believings that is a problem. Those evidences has no shown to anyone. Absolutely no one has ever seen evidence of such things. There is people who is willing to pay shit load of money for them and no-one is able to give any evidence of anything paranormal.

And it's you who is evading it, not me. I'm more then willing to study and examine your evidences when you bring them to light.

Hell, I'm even willing to take all credits of them. Go to show them and collect nice amount of money for them. If you only bring the evidences.

[Deepwaters]

(Weary sigh.)

RMJ, it's been done, by people with scientific budgets and a lot better equipment for the purpose than I can get my hands on. And you yourself have more psychic abilities than most people by a long shot. If that hasn't convinced you, nothing I can say or do will do it, so why waste my time?

The fact that you say "there is no evidence" is proof of the impossibility of convincing you. Of course there is evidence. You may say there isn't any evidence that can't be explained otherwise, or that there isn't enough evidence, or that the evidence isn't good enough. But if you say there is literally no evidence, you're stating the absurd, and that means your rational mind is turned off.

In any case, it's not my role in life to demonstrate the existence of the so-called "paranormal." Others may from time to time take on that role, and others have done so, but as you asked me to do w/r/t your Alizée dream, I am going to ask you to do your own research. I am simply not motivated to convince you, it's perfectly OK with me if you retain your belief system intact. I don't have to take it seriously, though.

[RMJ]

RMJ, it's been done, by people with scientific budgets and a lot better equipment for the purpose than I can get my hands on.
Well, obviously they found nothing. Since no one has ever seen any of those evidences.

Or go ahead, give me directions where to find scientific study that proves ghost to exist. Maybe there's been article in Nature ? Or Unnature in this case... :rolleyes:



And you yourself have more psychic abilities than most people by a long shot. If that hasn't convinced you, nothing I can say or do will do it, so why waste my time?
Yeah, and I'm also god. But that's another story.



The fact that you say "there is no evidence" is proof of the impossibility of convincing you. Of course there is evidence. You may say there isn't any evidence that can't be explained otherwise, or that there isn't enough evidence, or that the evidence isn't good enough. But if you say there is literally no evidence, you're stating the absurd, and that means your rational mind is turned off.
And where is this evidence of yours ? How come no one else has ever seen it ?


In any case, it's not my role in life to demonstrate the existence of the so-called "paranormal." Others may from time to time take on that role, and others have done so, but as you asked me to do w/r/t your Alizée dream, I am going to ask you to do your own research. I am simply not motivated to convince you, it's perfectly OK with me if you retain your belief system intact. I don't have to take it seriously, though.
I don't have belief systems. I'm not believer. I don't need something to be made up to survive in life. I can live life with the rules that exists in universe. I don't need gods to tell me what is right and what is wrong. I don't need ghost to cover my brain defunction. I don't need spirit to keep me alive.

[Drake498]

Well if anyone can find reasonable evidence they can get rich.

http://skepdic.com/randi.html

CON... :rolleyes:
lol don't anyone fall for something so stupid... please people don't be so naive :rolleyes:

[Deepwaters]

I don't have belief systems. I'm not believer.

Yes, you do have a belief system. It's called "classical materialism."

However, RMJ, I really think we need to declare a truce here and agree to disagree. For some reason, you and I have a tendency to come to blows, even when we actually agree with each other, let alone on a subject like this where we don't. It's almost sibling rivalry.

You believe all this is so much nonsense and I'm cool with that. Don't expect to convince me, though. OK?

[RMJ]

So typical. After failing to provide any evidence of anything paranormal, truce is offered. I wonder why... :rolleyes:

[neoteny]

HAHAHA. some things never change! oh yes, i dont believe in UFOs. as for ghosts, lemme put it this way, when anyone starts getting into long conversation with me in person about ghosts i tear up, but i dont cry. just tears. so in short...i believe in ghosts.

[Drake498]

RMJ, DEEPWATERS... break it up, just respect each others opinions for what they are, regardless of what your thoughts are about them. Both of you agree to disagree, cuz this is just getting plain stupid...
It's over, just end it...

[lead2gold]

Yeah, and I'm also god. But that's another story.


BLASPHEMY! Lili is God! :D

[CFHollister]

Yeah, and I'm also god. But that's another story

Man I'm gonna get it for this, but what the hell:p ...

If anyone ever has any doubts about RMJ's arogance, just go back to this quote.:rolleyes: With arogance like that I'd swear he's an American, I might even mistake him for a certain American president.:D


PS-Ok RMJ, or any other mod. If you think my jabbing attempt at humor crosses any lines, just delete it and not start any sort of debate.

[Joey_adore_Jung]

^ the debate would be kinda funny though CF no offense to the dearly cared for RMJ.

[lead2gold]

^ the debate would be kinda funny though CF no offense to the dearly cared for RMJ.

Looking to Hire

One (1) Joeyhehe to English Translator
Must have at least 1 year experience
Competitive Pay in the form of Lili Dollars

Please contact via PM

[RMJ]

RMJ, DEEPWATERS... break it up, just respect each others opinions for what they are, regardless of what your thoughts are about them. Both of you agree to disagree, cuz this is just getting plain stupid...
It's over, just end it...
I don't think you really read what was typed. It wasn't anything about disagreeing something. I simply asked some evidences to be shown. Which would back up his claims.

There's nothing to disagree or agree since there's nothing shown.


BLASPHEMY! Lili is God! :D

No, she's goddess.


Man I'm gonna get it for this, but what the hell:p ...

If anyone ever has any doubts about RMJ's arogance, just go back to this quote.:rolleyes: With arogance like that I'd swear he's an American, I might even mistake him for a certain American president.:D


PS-Ok RMJ, or any other mod. If you think my jabbing attempt at humor crosses any lines, just delete it and not start any sort of debate.
As long as you didn't take seriously that line... (not that I'm not god but that line was a joke.)

[fsquared]

Looking to Hire

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Please contact via PM


Aside from the aggressive lack of punctuation, this particular sentence is not so cryptic.

The debate would be kinda funny, though, CF. No offense to the (dearly cared for) RMJ.

[Drake498]

I don't think you really read what was typed. It wasn't anything about disagreeing something. I simply asked some evidences to be shown. Which would back up his claims.

There's nothing to disagree or agree since there's nothing shown.


Sarcasm is different then an explanation, however, i'll leave it at that... go in peace..

[Joey_adore_Jung]

Looking to Hire

One (1) Joeyhehe to English Translator
Must have at least 1 year experience
Competitive Pay in the form of Lili Dollars

Please contact via PM

oww that's mean THANKS :) always looking forward to being poked fun at.

[nurvonic]

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/B7C7WlYCZGQ"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/B7C7WlYCZGQ" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/VhAQrR8Jhkk"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/VhAQrR8Jhkk" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

back to my original intent of this thread, how do you explain these videos?

the first video, you clearly see a human figure in the doorway.

the second video is of the infamous Phoenix Lights that happened back in 1997. there were approximately 10,000 eye witnesses of this V-shaped object in the sky the size of a football field.

read more about this event here.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lights_Over_Phoenix

[RMJ]

1st video: what's it about ? (no, i can't watch stream videos currently)

2nd video: The United States Air Force (USAF) identified the second group of lights as flares dropped by A-10 Warthog aircraft which were on training exercises at the Barry Goldwater Range at Luke Air Force Base.

[nurvonic]

2nd video: The United States Air Force (USAF) identified the second group of lights as flares dropped by A-10 Warthog aircraft which were on training exercises at the Barry Goldwater Range at Luke Air Force Base.

lol load of crap. even AF guys think it was a load of crap. just another cover story.

i wouldnt go far as to say 10,000 people have mental problems, but 10,000 people certainly did see something in question. and i doubt flares would be able to make perfect V-shape in the sky like that.

so that's it huh? flares? just flares. flares. ok.

[RMJ]

Well, what do you think it is then ?

(not that I necessary believe their word either but since there's million ways to show lights on sky, why not that too. And what is perfect V-shape ? 3 dots always makes V-shape (when they aren't overlapping or on the same line). So 3 flares will with very likely make V-shape )

[Alizee_is_Scottish!]

I've seen loads of stuff that the military get up to at night that looks like 'alien' UFO's - and that's even knowing when there are aircraft in the area.

Saying that, there is an official MOD (the UK DoD) department that look into every sighting and match it to NATO flight plans, plot it against possible Russian (especially during the Cold War) capabilities and there are still a large number of 'unexplained' UFO's.

But these UFO's also help the RAF when they asking for new radars / fighters during budget cuts.:D

Till I get beamed up and probed, it's nothing to worry about.:blink:

[nurvonic]

Well, what do you think it is then ?



i think it was the mother ship calling you home.

[RMJ]

You mean 3 mother ships in perfect V shape ?

[nurvonic]

no just one giant ship with 3 lights at the corners. you dont know your own ship?

[RMJ]

Nope, Lili covered my eyes when we arrived.

[nurvonic]

i smell a lie. Lili is from Corsica, and you are of course from the planet Ramulak.

[Alizee_is_Scottish!]

Now imagine it's dark and the aircraft is flying without navigation lights (as the military sometime practice). Is it an angel?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfO3tBjZHZk

[nurvonic]

that video proves once and for all it was just flares. oh silly me.

well RMJ, the mother ship didnt come for you this time.

[RMJ]

The Corsica is just a cover story made by us.

[nurvonic]

another lie. there was no mother ship. just flares. i expected better from you RMJ.

[Alizee_is_Scottish!]

So the aliens only come at night, but aren't advanced enough to have invented the light switch.

As soon as they master the dimmer switch, the earth shall be invaded.

All the more reason to bring out a 3rd album ASAP.

(Long shot, but worth a go)

[neoteny]

you both are crazy. you both must be. both of you. but im still sane. both of you are crazy. paranoid. not a healthy lifestyle. ha im just kidding. but youre still crazy...both of you. about to be an illegal alienn.

[RMJ]

So the aliens only come at night, but aren't advanced enough to have invented the light switch.

As soon as they master the dimmer switch, the earth shall be invaded.

Yea... but maybe the problem is that dimmer switches can't be attached to perfect V-shape to take control of those lights.

[Alizee_is_Scottish!]

Yea... but maybe the problem is that dimmer switches can't be attached to perfect V-shape to take control of those lights.

Ah, if 'they' haven't even learnt how to formation fly and work light switches yet, then we have a bit more time to ready our defences.

I've got Europe covered.

[Joey_adore_Jung]

^ if you got Europe covered i Shall stand with....... one second almost got it...... i was going with Australia but Supakrupa got that one...... North America if i have to, though i'd GO for Euprope anyday.

[Alizee_is_Scottish!]

^ if you got Europe covered i Shall stand with....... one second almost got it...... i was going with Australia but Supakrupa got that one...... North America if i have to, though i'd GO for Euprope anyday.

Well, when I say Europe, I mean just Corsica and Paris:D

[Joey_adore_Jung]

Well, when I say Europe, I mean just Corsica and Paris:D

ahh well when i say North America screw it at the moment, i will protect Scotland and Norway.

[Deepwaters]

Thought this might be of interest and relevant to this topic. It's an interview Alizée gave when she was 18 or 19. I can read enough French to get the gist of it, but someone better than I am should probably provide a translation if anyone needs it.

http://img91.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fande011wj5.jpg

The gist of some of the questions/answers:

She believes (or did at the time) in extraterrestrials, but thinks they're probably nothing like what's in the movies, and thinks they're more likely to communicate the way dolphins do, ultrasonically, than in human-type language.

When asked whether she believes in ghosts, she answered that she believes in spirits, and described seances she used to conduct with her girlfriends.

When asked whether she believes in God, she answered that she does believe in "something higher" and did her catechism, but isn't a practicing Catholic and doesn't say her evening prayers.

When asked whether she believes in reincarnation, she said she does, but doesn't know who her past lives were; still she's pretty sure she was male in at least one of them. "I don't know why, but sometimes I respond like a guy."

[Deepwaters]

Here's a link to RMJ's description of his Lili-in-the-room sleep-deprived experience:

http://www.alizee-forum.com/showthread.php?t=12788&page=163

Here's the part of the experience that I believe was real, or a channel for something real:


At times, she came closer to me, like she was aware of me. But I can't tell if she ever touched me. Or was she really aware of me anyways. Was I just nothing for her like those tables and chairs she kept ignoring. But still, time to time I felt very warm. Like she was thinking of me or maybe even touching me. It made me felt good and happy.


The rest of it, the physical presence, of course she wasn't actually there so that wasn't real. It was a hallucination, but it conveyed something that was true.

[RMJ]

Thought this might be of interest and relevant to this topic. It's an interview Alizée gave when she was 18 or 19. I can read enough French to get the gist of it, but someone better than I am should probably provide a translation if anyone needs it.

http://img91.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fande011wj5.jpg


http://www.alizee-fanpage.com/page.php?language=ger&content=showpress&id=163&lang=gb


Interview: I believe in / I don't believe in

Alizée: "I believe in love at first sight!"

Alizée's success is currently surpassing our borders. The singer is being demanded in the four corners of the Earth, her Anglo-saxon album is being picked up everywhere, and Japan has literally succumbed to the charm of our lolita. During a quick stop in France, Alizée didn't miss the chance to call Fan 2 to do a little interview "I believe in / I don't believe in". She may not be 20 years old, but Alizée still believes in a lot of things. Here's a little glance...

Do you believe in aliens?
A: Yes, but I don't imagine them at all like E.T. I don't see them either with a head and arms, like how we're used to seeing them represented in movies or in cartoons. They must look like Barbapapa. I think they're rather nice. As for their language, they must communicate with ultrasonic sound, like dolphins or the aliens in the movie "Mars Attacks." I'd like to meet an extraterrestrial, but up until now, I haven't had any close encounters of the third kind!

Do you believe in ghosts?
A: I believe in spirits. I did spiritism with some friends a few years ago. We set things up in a room. A spirit manifested itself and communicated with us with help from a glass that was moved over the letters of the alphabet. We asked it several questions. Sometimes its answers were incomprehensible! When the housekeeper came in the room, she screamed like a madwoman. She immediately guessed that we had called forth the spirits. The day after our spirit seance, we went to break that glass that we used in a cemetery. Unfortunately, it was a wedding present that belonged to my friend's mom! That made for quite a story because the glass had a lot of value!

You weren't afraid?
A: A little, but I was reassured because my friends were with me.

Do you believe in the gossip in Voici?
A: No, I don't believe in it. A Voici journalist wrote that I was going out with Olivier, my manager, which is false! I imagine that what is published about the other stars is also baloney!

Do you believe in astrology?
A: Sometimes. I read my horoscope, but I don't necessarily take it into account. It doesn't influence my daily life, even though sometimes it turns out to be exact.

Do you believe in God?
A: Yes, I believe there's something up there, but I'm not a church-goer. I did my communion, I went to catechism, but I don't say my prayers every night!

Do you believe in yourself?
A: No. Let's say rather that I still lack confidence in myself. When I step off the stage after recording a TV show, I'm never content with my performance; even though my entourage tells me that it was good. I don't like watching myself on TV, but sometimes I do it to correct myself.

Do you believe that you are going to find a love interest soon?
A: Yes, I hope so because I still don't have a love interest!

Do you believe in the end of the world?
A: Yes and no. I prefer not to think about it too much, actually.

Do you believe in the effectiveness of anti-wrinkle creams?
A: Yes. These creams never make wrinkles disappear, but they slow the appearance of wrinkles.

Do you believe in reincarnation?
A: Yes. I don't know what my former lives were, but I'd like to be reincarnated as a boy. I don't know why, but sometimes, I react like a guy.

Do you believe in the comback by WhatFor?
A: Of course. They promise the world to all the candidates who participate in these TV reality shows, and many are those who are very disappointed. Being discovered by a TV show isn't always a ticket for success. Having said that, I hope for them that they are going to succeed in coming back on the scene.

Do you believe in love at first sight?
A: Yes, that happened to me a few years ago in high school. I came across a guy that I liked a lot, but I never dared approaching him. He also had noticed me, it seems. One day, we met each other by chance, and I must admit that something undescribable happened between us. Since then, I've believed in love at first sight!

Do you believe in hypnosis?
A: No, not at all. I'd have to try it, out of curiosity, but for now, I don't believe in it.

Do you believe in the proverb "Money doesn't bring happiness"?
A: It depends, because with money, you can still make people happy. Even if you're in good health, and your close ones love you, life can be difficult when money is cruelly lacking. It's therefore difficult to say that money doesn't bring happiness. You need at least a little of it!

Do you believe you're liked for yourself or because you're famous?
A: Both of them. I'm well aware that it's not quite the same with others since I've become famous, but I don't have too much to complain about.

Do you believe that Lorie and Billy Crawford are going to get married before the end of the year?
A: This year? They don't have much time. No, I don't believe so, maybe next year! Yes, I think they'll get married in 2004. I wish it for them in any case!

Do you believe in the success of "Star Academy season 3"?
A: Yes, why? I'll go sing with pleasure on the show, but I don't see myself going to the chateau.

Translated by Backinblack

[RMJ]

Quote from Alizée
I'd like to meet an extraterrestrial, but up until now, I haven't had any close encounters of the third kind!


Snatcher, make now the jokes of me being an alien. :p

We are so meant to be. :wub:

[Drake498]

Reincarnation? perhaps not... -_-

[Joey_adore_Jung]

damn reincarnation is actually pretty cool, though i belive in it i believed in it before i read that too be honest, i mean i have all this random knowledge i have no idea that got into my head and that is what makes me believe, plus i took this test that said i used to be some Female General or something, which made me laugh.

[Alizee_is_Scottish!]

Snatcher, make now the jokes of me being an alien. :p

We are so meant to be. :wub:

Well, going by our leader's comments that aliens look like Barapapa, we have already got a positive ID on you:

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb126/dougieveitch/180px-Barbapapa.jpg

"Barbapapa himself is a generally pear-shaped, pink shapeshifting blob-like creature who stumbles upon the human world and tries to fit in. The shapeshifting is usually accompanied by the saying "Clickety Click Barba Trick". After various amusing adventures, he comes across a female of his species (more shapely, and black-coloured), named Barbamama. They produce seven children, known as the Barbababies, each a different colour"

You do not appear to be a threat to the Earth at the moment.:blink:

Edit: Also appears that one of alien kids has got a dog called lolita.

[RMJ]

Yup, I'm pear shaped ! I got lil extra on my waist :blink:

moi :wub: lili
lili :wub: moi !

[Zack -Alizee Lover-]

Found them interesting
<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/b5j6ha1t_T0"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/b5j6ha1t_T0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>
I saw this video on a TV show. It was in Spain.
Note that human eyes dont shine with the night vision thing.

And i also found pretty good this one
<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/deoJUBW9CI8"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/deoJUBW9CI8" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

[espire]

Zack, I didn't want to watch the second video (ten minutes is too long), but the first one is pretty freaky. However, that doesn't meant that it's some sort of ghost! It could easily have been some other animal, or maybe there was a different light reflecting off the eyes.

[painbringer]

this is the only guy i take seriously on the subject of UFO ...well there are some others too but this guy the most.

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/tCvjVLP0CCY"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/tCvjVLP0CCY" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

here are some links to his video about anti gravity. i know a little about physics and i think this guy is for real.

part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHYD7SOiqbc

part 2 ttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XP2b2OrwO-8

part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLeD_CbETvM

part 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QGzQsmsnXA

part 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e88JLzy25TE

part 6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SnSlY9bxMo

part 7 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anZcqrSv-CA

part 8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-0g70BWsVo

part 9 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjitXn4VQaA

[chrelion]

The closest I might come to believing in the unexplained might be in things like OBEs and Lucid Dreams. What I mean by that is - the effects of altered consciousness. I think most of this stuff seems very real, but is generated in the head. I want objective, verifiable evidence for any of these sorts of things: Ghosts, Extra-Terrestrial Spacecraft (UFOs can really mean anything that hasn't been identified and can fly - lots of things of an Earthly nature could qualify), etc.
What would qualify as proof? Well, first off, a reliable source. University-level research or something from a scientific magazine. I don't want documentaries from some sensationalist media outlet - I want real science done on these things. James Randi's pointing the questioning in the right direction.
I'd love it if the universe had some really broad mysteries that weren't mere subjective experience. Personal accounts won't do much for me. If anyone has some real science backing up any paranormal claims, please let me see it. I'm really, really curious to see.

[MiamMiam]

I truly believe there are things out there that can't be explained in the normal scientific sense....apparations and such (not saying they're the spirits of dead people), but I believe that something happens when we die...we have all this energy within ourselves, that when we die it has to be released somehow =\. UFO's, I don't really know what to believe about them, honestly I guess I'm kind of indifferent lol. Anyway I've had a couple of first hand experiences that I have a hard time proving scientifically that were kind of freaky, but does that mean that they were dead people doing them? I don't know.

[lefty12357]

Hey, MiamMiam is back ! Haven't seen you post in a while...

[thats amazazazing]

I truly believe there are things out there that can't be explained in the normal scientific sense....apparations and such (not saying they're the spirits of dead people), but I believe that something happens when we die...we have all this energy within ourselves, that when we die it has to be released somehow =\. UFO's, I don't really know what to believe about them, honestly I guess I'm kind of indifferent lol. Anyway I've had a couple of first hand experiences that I have a hard time proving scientifically that were kind of freaky, but does that mean that they were dead people doing them? I don't know.

what if our "energy" is just consumed by other living organisms, aka we just rot.

[Deepwaters]

what if our "energy" is just consumed by other living organisms, aka we just rot.

When those with greater psychic sensitivity than a block of granite use the word "energy," generally they mean what is perceived by means of said sensitivity. It's an imprecise usage of the word.

Our "energy" as defined in physics is indeed consumed by other living organisms. However, that's not what MM was talking about.

[painbringer]

well right now according to string theory physicists are saying that there could be up to 10 dimensions(4 we are aware of and 6 curled up in space) so if its true then we're 10th dimensional beings but we're only aware of 3 spacial dimensions plus time.

so there is a possiblity that these ghost and other stuff are there in the other dimensions but with our limited 5 senses we're not aware of them.

if you guys have a chance pick up a book call "Flatland" and its successor "Sphereland". they're great books on multi-dimensional thinking and very easy to read and understand.

and i think they are making a big budget hollywood movie on flatland too, here's the link

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0814106/