How Degrading...

[MesGourmandises]

OK, well I have an opinionated question...
do you think that the j'en ai marre dance was degrading to alizee?
Seeing all those people watching her butt when she turned over, and every man yelling and cheering, she must have hated doing it! She probably was forced by mylene.. because she NEVER looks happy when she does it.. and sometimes she wears sweats instead of the suit, why do you think that happened? I think it was a compromise between alizee and mylene that alizee didnt want to wear degrading costumes like that very much...

anyway, don't you think it's degrading?
do you think she minded it?
because I watch it, and while i think shes beautiful, i feel so bad...

[Solaris]

Dude i'm sure she doesn't mind. In an interview she said she like to dress sexy and be flirty. She said that others thought she dressed provocative but she liked to dress like that. So i honestly believe she did not mind. And I have never seen her look unhappy when doing the dance.

PS I have the interview in question. It was an english interview and I believe I got it from Moe's site

[AmericanFan]

You underestimate Alizee. Nobody can force her to do anything. While I'm sure she didn't come up with it on her own, it didn't bother her any. Along with singing and dancing, she is also an actress. Obviously she was merely playing a role. And she did it well.
Unlike many others Alizee can be sexy without being disgusting. The girl has class.

[ALS]

Lets see 18 year old girl on stage dancing for the crowd. HUMMM.
She was enjoying being a tease. Look at the early performances and watch her face. She was having a good time out there.
I think as time went on she wasn't as comfortable with her performance and toned it down a little bit.
Watch the La Isla Bonita performance she was having a great time swinging her hips.
If she wasn't having a good time it wouldn't have been as sexy since she wouldn't have put as much effort into it. She is a performer as well as a trained dancer she knows what will sell and what wouldn't.

[RMJ]

Dude i'm sure she doesn't mind. In an interview she said she like to dress sexy and be flirty.
She says what is needed to be say in media. Not everything in interviews should be taken literally, especially under Mylène's instructions.





And yeah... JEAM was bad for her. Mylène went too far with it. It really didn't fit in the image of the MCE album.

Did Alizée mind about that ? Well, not necessary as she understands that it's music business. But I doubt she loved it either. She just played her role and that's it.

[Deepwaters]

My own opinion about the JEAM dance is that it isn't degrading, but the whole complex of performances and image she had under Mylène's management was not quite right for her. As I understand it, Mylène and Laurent came up with a number of songs, with Moi . . . Lolita as the centerpiece, that they liked but that Mylène understood she was too old to perform herself. They auditioned for a girl who could be just as sexy and charismatic as Mylène, but was a teenager able to pull off the Lolita role.

The problem is that Alizée's performing style doesn't really involve acting a role most of the time. She connects with her audience as herself, and relates to them in a friendly way. You can really see it in the concert DVD and a lot of the TV performances. And she herself was never a Lolita and is not now a walking sex symbol. Whereas Mylène does perform a role when she sings; that's not the real Mylène you see on stage, it's a beautifully crafted and acted image.

It will be interesting to see what kind of performances Alizée does now that she's an adult and under her own management. My guess is that the sexuality will be more understated while it won't completely disappear. The performances will be more complex, more nuanced, and full of implications, but she'll still be connecting personally with the audience and still fully herself. But we'll see.

[AmericanFan]

Deepwaters hit the nail right on the head!

[atra201]

my opinion she didn't like it
i believe from the few vids i saw that she only wore that out fit in France and not other JEAM performance cause she didn't like it in the first place
but i don't think it's degrading to Alizee:wub: . I think it is degrading to those who say I wanna nail that to every woman they see
in my believe a woman is not just "a body to nail" she's more than that, she's your mother,sister, wife, aunt, she's your other half, if you keep thinking like what do you think your other half would think about you??that's why i hate porn but that doesn't mean a woman walking naked won't have eyes all over her.
(Or something in that effect)

let's what Alizee would do now .

[AmericanFan]

Get a grip... every normal guy would want to nail Alizee regardless what she wore. The truth is that there are some girls out there that would be interested too.
In any case, Alizee would have some say in it. She never struck me as the type who would EVER sleep around.
It doesn't matter what she wears. Alizee could dress up in a space suit and still be smokin' hot!

[OGRE]

anyway, don't you think it's degrading?

Nope.

do you think she minded it?

Nope.

because I watch it, and while i think shes beautiful, i feel so bad...

You hit it on the "shes beautiful" note. That's all you need. Art can be provocative. Art can be sensual. Art can be sexy. And it doesn't have to be bad. Alizée is a walking art museum. A museum full of wonderful beautiful art and song. Just enjoy the art.

By the way, when it come to the JEAM dance, the art I focus on is the eyes and smile. I see so many entertainers have to fake smiles. I can tell. That's a genuine real smile from someone really enjoying doing what they're doing.

[Joey_adore_Jung]

well in case it wasn't mentioned the JPVA suits were rather eye catching as well so again she obviously didn't mind, if you think about it.

[atra201]

Get a grip... every normal guy would want to nail Alizee regardless what she wore. The truth is that there are some girls out there that would be interested too.
In any case, Alizee would have some say in it. She never struck me as the type who would EVER sleep around.
It doesn't matter what she wears. Alizee could dress up in a space suit and still be smokin' hot!
i don't think you understood me
i was speaking to those who don't agree to what you just said and i quote from it this sentence "Alizee could dress up in a space suit and still be smokin' hot!"
i myself think she's so beautiful and just had a dream about last night to prove it and i didn't say i didn't wanna nail her myself. try to understand me first

[CFHollister]

I was writitng a long response to this but a wrong click deleted it, oh well:rolleyes:. I guess you'll just get the short version now.

Anyways... No, I don't think they were degrading. I think Alizée herself my have best weighed in her opionion when she said (I've used this quote before):
"In any case, being sexy includes being natural. Anything can be sexy, except vulgarity." -Alizée
And I can see nothing vulgar in any of Alizée's performance regardless of of how immature, vulgar, and degrading assholes may choose to respond to them.

Similarly, (not saying she ever would or should) if Alizée were ever to pose nude for photographs, those wouldn't be degrading either. Afterall, how can something so natural, beautiful, and pure be degrading? Alizée's nature includes being natural, beautiful, sensual, and even sexual. To deny or ignore those qualities that she posesses does her as great a disservice as focussing all one's attention on them. Just because something can be degraded by vulgar and callous individuals, doesn't mean that it is degrading.

It is possible Alizée may have become uncomfortable and a change was made... perhaps there were too many assholes in her audience (I kinda doubt that), maybe she decided that those aspects of her nature were more meant for her future husband Jérémy with whom she may have getting closer to, or maybe she just decided that she didn't want to share that aspect of herself so freely with the public because, well, that's her perogative... or all of those possibilities could be wrong. They could have just decided to change costumes.

[Solaris]

Well put CFH, and sorry bout your long explanation.

[Deepwaters]

Change costumes?

In the JEAM and IFU videos on this site, she wore pants at Eurobest on 3/25, and in Germany on 7/12. She wore the other outfit on 3/1, 3/8, 3/14, and 4/2, and for the IFU performance on 7/4. There was no change in costume, it was just a variation.

[atra201]

i just want to that i don't just want to "nail Alizee " just to stop any complaints about my previous comment
i totally agree with CFHollister
but about posing nude i think one's body is his or hers only and should not be shared except for that person and NOT the public

[AmericanFan]

I believe CF said it best... In any case, being sexy includes being natural. Anything can be sexy, except vulgarity."

[Deepwaters]

but about posing nude i think one's body is his or hers only and should not be shared except for that person and NOT the public

Well, Alizée has never shown any inclination to pose nude, and I don't expect that, but just the same I disagree. There's nothing wrong with a naked body unless it's presented in a furtive way that suggests there IS something wrong with it. If she did want to do that, I'm sure it would be done in a very tasteful way and would not be vulgar.

[CFHollister]

I believe CF said it best... In any case, being sexy includes being natural. Anything can be sexy, except vulgarity."

Perhaps I didn't make myself completely clear, that is what Alizée (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Aliz%C3%A9e) has said. ;)

[fsquared]

Change costumes?

In the JEAM and IFU videos on this site, she wore pants at Eurobest on 3/25, and in Germany on 7/12. She wore the other outfit on 3/1, 3/8, 3/14, and 4/2, and for the IFU performance on 7/4. There was no change in costume, it was just a variation.

I forget now where, but I think in one of her interviews she actually discussed why she wore pants in some (e.g. Eurobest). Something about having to sing something else too and/or to be on stage introducing or doing something with some other performers.

[AmericanFan]

i just want to that i don't just want to "nail Alizee " just to stop any complaints about my previous comment
i totally agree with CFHollister
but about posing nude i think one's body is his or hers only and should not be shared except for that person and NOT the public

We are almost in agreement. While I FIRMLY believe a person's body is their own, they should have the right to do ANYTHING with it as they see fit... provided that it doesn't cause harm to others.
There are ways of posing nude that are quite beautiful, yet also ways that are absolutely disgusting. To clarify... compare some of the ancient statues and paintings to common porn. I'm sure anyone can see the difference.

[AmericanFan]

I wasn't quite clear in my last statement. I would like to add that old, fat, and/or ugly people should never pose nude under any circumstances! That is just wrong!

[Joey_adore_Jung]

i completely agree with the people that agree with CF, and I agree with CF himself. all in all, there are some rather great nude paintings and statues you'll see, say like the Venus De Milo if i can remember correctly. some paitings i have seen are rather nice, though most guys i see there, are thinking that the painter is a complete perv... really some of the painters work, he acutally respects that woman.

[RMJ]

I wasn't quite clear in my last statement. I would like to add that old, fat, and/or ugly people should never pose nude under any circumstances! That is just wrong!
So 99.99% people should never do that but should watch the rest of doing it and feel low because they aren't good enough to look like that ?

Very healthy image of you have...

But I guess it's not very surprising.

[AmericanFan]

So 99.99% people should never do that but should watch the rest of doing it and feel low because they aren't good enough to look like that ?

Very healthy image of you have...

But I guess it's not very surprising.

Yep... that pretty much covers the basics. I guess what I'm trying to say is that... "If you've got it, flaunt it. If you haven't got it... PLEASE keep it private"!!!

[Deepwaters]

Having done skyclad (=naked) rituals with a wide variety of people, including some who were old, fat, or ugly, I don't agree with that, either, AF. Here, a quote from my novel in progress that's appropriate:


Lightning is a big, hairy man. He's almost seven feet tall, and very big around. He must weigh close to three hundred pounds, and while a good bit of that is fat, there's plenty of muscle under there, too. When I say hairy, I mean all over, like a throwback to some primordial furry sapient. I joined him once for a skyclad ritual (that's witch talk for "unclothed" if you didn't know) and I can say that while the sight of a naked Lightning is not aesthetically appealing, it is certainly impressive.


Just separate the concept of nudity in your mind from sex. It's possible to be naked without being sexual, you know. And also possible to be sexual without being naked. Only the nudity taboo causes people to reflexively connect the two.

[AmericanFan]

Having done skyclad (=naked) rituals with a wide variety of people, including some who were old, fat, or ugly, I don't agree with that, either, AF. Here, a quote from my novel in progress that's appropriate:



Just separate the concept of nudity in your mind from sex. It's possible to be naked without being sexual, you know. And also possible to be sexual without being naked. Only the nudity taboo causes people to reflexively connect the two.

My last two comments were intended as sarcasm.

[Deepwaters]

My last two comments were intended as sarcasm.

OK, sorry for the misunderstanding. You might try applying appropriate smileys, since tone of voice doesn't convey in print. ;)

[espire]

This is exactly why modesty can be so important sometimes. RMJ is right in that it's not fair for some people to be "allowed" to show off while other's aren't. However, it really isn't a good thing for anybody to show off to the extent that some do all of the time. It's distracting, and really does promote the idea of a person being a little bit of an object. A woman is much more than just something pretty, and focusing on that can lead focus away from other things.

Of course, Alizée has stated is that one of her favourite parts of performing is that she can wear things that she would normally never wear, and it's very true. The only issue she ever had with covering up was when her pants were riding rather low, and that seems to have been a phase in which she was trying to be like Jérémy.

Edit: Misinterpreted sarcasm, but I still stand by what I said in general.

[AmericanFan]

I believe I mentioned the same thing when I said that everyone should have the right to exploit themselves as long as it doesn't cause harm to others.

But again... if the person is old, fat, ugly or a combination of the three... unnecessary exposure could cause a chain reaction resulting in the end of civilization as we know it. Oh the humanity! :)

[Deepwaters]

The only issue she ever had with covering up was when her pants were riding rather low, and that seems to have been a phase in which she was trying to be like Jérémy.

Did she actually say that, about her falling-off-the-ass jeans?

Yeah, the problem there is that she was trying to be like the wrong aspect of Jérémy. She should have tried to play keyboards and write music like he does, not dress the way he does. ;)

[espire]

Did she actually say that, about her falling-off-the-ass jeans?

Yeah, the problem there is that she was trying to be like the wrong aspect of Jérémy. She should have tried to play keyboards and write music like he does, not dress the way he does. ;)

No, she never mentioned that; I was simply adding in my own commentary ;)

[Solaris]

No, she never mentioned that; I was simply adding in my own commentary ;)

She actually looks pretty in that phase but thats probably cause her expressions in those outfits were timeless. Plus being Alizée doesn't hurt the cuteness factor in my opinion. :wub:

[atra201]

Well, Alizée has never shown any inclination to pose nude, and I don't expect that, but just the same I disagree. There's nothing wrong with a naked body unless it's presented in a furtive way that suggests there IS something wrong with it. If she did want to do that, I'm sure it would be done in a very tasteful way and would not be vulgar.
i'm not saying that for Alizee
it's just my opinion for Alizee and everybody else
so how can you present a body in tasteful way???

[digitalfie]

I truly believe she knew exactly what she was doing in that outfit and that dance. She was smiling like the cat that ate the canary. It was part of what she was (still is I hope!) as the Lolita image. I believe you can be very erotic fully clothed, it all starts between your ...... ears. Another point is that, isn't the french/corsican ideas on sex/nudity completely different then us westerners? I'm a veteran of the free love, flower chidren, Vietnam War days. Our idea of sex/nudity was alot different then from what it is now. The most nudity generally accepted at the time was Playboy. But compared to all the other dancers/singers Alizee is very conservative. Almost a flying nun. ( Anybody remember her?)

nuff said

[Solaris]

i'm not saying that for Alizee
it's just my opinion for Alizee and everybody else
so how can you present a body in tasteful way???

Well if it is done for the sake of art then its perfectly OK. To think a body can't be naked and portrayed as art is a little closed minded. Now obviously a great deal of nudity is done for sexually pleasure but at the same time it is also done for expression and art. The Sistine chapel painting is not sexual. So why does all other nudity have to be.

[Deepwaters]

so how can you present a body in tasteful way???

Here are two examples.

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t7/briandrush/David.jpg

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t7/briandrush/Venus.jpg

[brad]

Hey without JEAM many (and i mean many) of us would not be here. myself included. i know that is how i first noticed her. not to say that is what drove me to make a website for her, or hang around for 2 years waiting for a new album, or constantly listening to her music since i first discovered her.

but without JEAM, I don't think I would have ever taken the time to give her a chance. maybe that is shallow, but it is the truth. in the USA there wasn't a chance to hear her on the radio or be exposed to her in any other way.

and lets not forget she is incredibly attractive, nothing wrong with showing off a little bit of what she has to offer. like i have said before, you don't walk out on stage and do that performance countless times in front of millions of people unless you are totally comfortable with it.

i think we read way to much into a lot of this stuff sometimes. she is simply an attractive girl wearing a sexy but tasteful outfit, dancing and driving ever male in sight crazy.

[MesGourmandises]

I do agree that Alizee has a lot of class.. and she doesn't look like she would ever wanna become a loose women.. I doubt that will ever happen.

Although, Europian nations are more free with their bodies as they are more artistic and don't view the body as a pornographic thing, more like beauty. For americans, it's hard to picture, but I'm sure they really do believe that. Americans (i am one, but i'm not the statistc) mostly have absolutely no class. They wanna bang everything they think is remotely hot, and the thing is, some girls just let them. Most American celebrities have no class, britney spears, paris hilton, tila tequila, but that's a different picture. So we can conclude that the fact that france is more natural with the body makes it less degrading on alizee.

However, Alizee sure gets a lot of comments on those videos she's got on youtube, most of them are raunchy and innappropriate, and it's sad. Guess what - those are the americans.

Sure we watched this video probably most of us, and said WHO is this girl? I was personally turned on, sure, everyone is... but I really think shes a beautiful girl and don't just value her for her sex tease dances, but more for the fact that shes pure and beautiful and i could easily fall purely in love with her... although I don't [for now].

Mylene does what she wants, and I see her beign a ruler and somewhat loose. Let's face it, although Alizee had guts, she was only a teenager, and she had to listen to the bigshots who really knew what they were doing. However, it kinda crossed the line with her dancing in that stupid nightclub in moi lolita... and when she did those dances like she was some pole dancer.. sure they werent all like that.. but it almost seemed that that instrumental interlude in J'en ai marre was just screaming "ok, forget the voice, all attention on her butt please!!" and then everyone cheered and some made rude comments... Mylene shouldnt have put that shake in there, cuz its on GIF images everywhere on google of just her butt... wow; how degrading ;). Anyway, mylene should have just left that dance without the booty shake, it would have been sexy enough, and still reserved, which is what alizee is.

Although, we have to hand it to alizee.. she's handling fame very well.. and hasn't done what all american celebrities have, except a few. Well done, Lili!!

And, every hour theres a new comment on her JEAM video, hey.. everyone loves her. :)

[AmericanFan]

I truly believe she knew exactly what she was doing in that outfit and that dance. She was smiling like the cat that ate the canary. It was part of what she was (still is I hope!) as the Lolita image. I believe you can be very erotic fully clothed, it all starts between your ...... ears. Another point is that, isn't the french/corsican ideas on sex/nudity completely different then us westerners? I'm a veteran of the free love, flower chidren, Vietnam War days. Our idea of sex/nudity was alot different then from what it is now. The most nudity generally accepted at the time was Playboy. But compared to all the other dancers/singers Alizee is very conservative. Almost a flying nun. ( Anybody remember her?)

nuff said

I am from that era as well, a Vietnam vet etc.
I think I have you beat on The Flying Nun... Do you remember when Annette from The Mickey Mouse Club "developed" overnight? It is still a mystery how that happened so fast but I remember it was the talk of the neighborhood at the time.
Anytime you want to borrow my Ricky Nelson records, feel free to ask LOL. I'm not even going to ask if anyone remembers Ozzie & Harriet but does anyone know who they were? How about Hazel?
And no cheating by searching Google!

[Just a Guest]

Hey without JEAM many (and i mean many) of us would not be here. myself included. i know that is how i first noticed her. not to say that is what drove me to make a website for her, or hang around for 2 years waiting for a new album, or constantly listening to her music since i first discovered her.

but without JEAM, I don't think I would have ever taken the time to give her a chance. maybe that is shallow, but it is the truth. in the USA there wasn't a chance to hear her on the radio or be exposed to her in any other way.

and lets not forget she is incredibly attractive, nothing wrong with showing off a little bit of what she has to offer. like i have said before, you don't walk out on stage and do that performance countless times in front of millions of people unless you are totally comfortable with it.

i think we read way to much into a lot of this stuff sometimes. she is simply an attractive girl wearing a sexy but tasteful outfit, dancing and driving ever male in sight crazy.

Amen to that! :)

[Drake498]

uh to answer the question in one word = No ;)

[dan]

Anyway, mylene should have just left that dance without the booty shake, it would have been sexy enough, and still reserved, which is what alizee is.

If you look closely, you can see the light reflecting off the fishing line Mylene uses to turn Alizée around. In fact, Mylene performs this number directly afterward: http://youtube.com/watch?v=n8MSGk9HvwA

However, Alizee sure gets a lot of comments on those videos she's got on youtube, most of them are raunchy and innappropriate, and it's sad. Guess what - those are the americans.

I'm sure you're wrong. It's definitely the Swiss.

[Ali]

I don't think Alizee will ever post nude. She is just not that type of girl, she isn't trash like many other artists we have today and I guess that is part of the reason that I am drawn to her. Going around and posing nude for all the world to see is frankly inappropriate, if it's in the privacy of someone's home then that's a different matter.

[olympia]

We're just speculating... I personally do not believe Alizee was "forced" into doing the sexy dance... like somebody mentioned before, what about the La Isla Bonita dance?? Similar, except for the less showy outfit...

[Ben]

she isn't trash like many other artists we have today... Going around and posing nude for all the world to see is frankly inappropriate
I think the point others were trying to make was precisely that she could do it without being trashy or inappropriate, and that nudity needn't always be so. Which I completely agree with, not that I think she will anyway.

[Deepwaters]

Americans (i am one, but i'm not the statistc) mostly have absolutely no class. They wanna bang everything they think is remotely hot, and the thing is, some girls just let them.


Oh, now you've got me started. Bad move. :D

When I hear a phrase like "they wanna bang everything they think is remotely hot," I have a split reaction. On the one hand, it's a contrast with me -- I'm pretty selective about who I'd be willing to make love to. And it can't just be someone "remotely hot," or even extremely hot. Sex for me is a joining of spirits, not just of bodies, so who the person is becomes more important than what her body is like.

But on the other hand, it's also a contrast with a puritanical virgin-until-married ideal that I regard as every bit as soulless as the bang-everything-remotely-hot thing. Both of them try to separate the spiritual and the sexual, resulting in the death of both. Because they belong together, and when separated they lose something vital.

And when that phrase is followed by "some girls just let them," I know which one is being held up as the contrasting ideal. Very simply put, if she wants to, if she feels a connection with him, and if she isn't betraying her obligations to an existing relationship by doing so, why on Earth shouldn't she "just let him"? -- or well, I would actually hope hers would be a more active part than that. ;)

To the extent your stereotype is accurate, and like all stereotypes there's some truth to it but not enough that you can pigeonhole Americans, it's a reaction to our nation's puritan past. In trying to be liberated from the chains placed on sexuality in that past, people mainly show that the chains are still there. A rebel isn't free, he's trying to become free. When he actually is free, he won't need to rebel any more.

I'm very selective, as I said. But I have no respect at all for the usual rules, although I have some of my own. I never cheated on my wife when I was married, nor on any girlfriend I had a monogamous relationship with, but I have no scruples about getting involved with someone else's wife or girlfriend, if their relationship has decayed to the point where she'd be willing to do that. I've been involved in three long-term monogamous relationships, only one of which was a legal marriage, but I don't consider the marriage any more "serious" than the other two. It's the emotional commitment that matters. The legalities are just window dressing.

And, most pertinent to this discussion, if a woman is open about her sexuality, that does not lower her in my eyes. It's very telling that in American slang, "whore" can refer to a woman who loves sex and isn't inhibited about it. What it actually means is a woman (or man) who sells sexual favors for money. To someone still chained by puritanism, that phrase reads: someone who sells SEXUAL FAVORS for money. To me, it reads: someone who sells sexual favors FOR MONEY. It's the selling that's wrong to me, not the sex.

Puritanism is leprosy of the soul, and soulless promiscuity is its twin sibling. Where you have one, you will have the other.


However, Alizee sure gets a lot of comments on those videos she's got on youtube, most of them are raunchy and innappropriate, and it's sad. Guess what - those are the americans.


Some, but I've seen quite a lot from Mexicans, too, and one particularly raunchy, disrespectful, and contemptible comment was posted in perfect colloquial French (as well as I can judge that).


However, it kinda crossed the line with her dancing in that stupid nightclub in moi lolita...


What was wrong with the ML nightclub? I don't get you here. It was part of the story.


but it almost seemed that that instrumental interlude in J'en ai marre was just screaming "ok, forget the voice, all attention on her butt please!!"


Well, that's where the fish was . . .

AF, why did I think you were only 31? If you're a Vietnam vet, you're older than I am, 'cause I was (thankfully) too young for that one.

[espire]

BAM.


The dragon from the deep has spoken. ;)

And one of your best rants yet (I'm serious)

[Solaris]

Ahh Deep I guess some of these members have yet to meet your views on human sexuality. I totally agree with you, it's something that is plaguing many American souls. Alizée stated as well that she doesn't see anything wrong with nudity as long as its natural and in good taste. (by the way deepwaters your screen name was my junior high schools name.)

[Matrix]

OK, well I have an opinionated question...
do you think that the j'en ai marre dance was degrading to alizee?
Seeing all those people watching her butt when she turned over, and every man yelling and cheering, she must have hated doing it! She probably was forced by mylene.. because she NEVER looks happy when she does it.. and sometimes she wears sweats instead of the suit, why do you think that happened? I think it was a compromise between alizee and mylene that alizee didnt want to wear degrading costumes like that very much...

anyway, don't you think it's degrading?
do you think she minded it?
because I watch it, and while i think shes beautiful, i feel so bad...


Well, if Alizee felt degraded she never would have done it. I believe in an interview she said nudity or sexuality is alright as long as it is not vulgar. Alizee is by no means a prude, she knows she is sexy, she feels sexy and she acts sexy...you can see it when she performs on stage. She is enjoying her sexuality.

The only thing you need to come to grips with is your own feelings about sexuality. It's an individual thing and it changes as you progress in life and also depending on what mood you in :p

I don't think JEAM was degrading at all, man that was nothing compared to what my eyes have seen rofl

[AmericanFan]

AF, why did I think you were only 31? If you're a Vietnam vet, you're older than I am, 'cause I was (thankfully) too young for that one.

It may have been an assumption as my wife is around that age and I have mentioned her a few times. Most people don't know I'm a dirty old man. At least they didn't until now.
Back to your rant. :) I agree with it. I too am one who never strayed from a relationship. I didn't waste any time between them, but never overlapped them.

I'm glad you missed out on the war. I think it is finally over. I recently mustered the courage to visit The Wall and reunited with lost friends. While I maintain high hopes that I may someday heal, I'm certain the scars will remain forever. Wouldn't it be great if there was a war and nobody showed up to fight in it?

I know 99% of this isn't on topic but one important point I would like to make is for everyone to look at the list in "What Country Are You From". It took someone like Alizee to bring together all of us; from every corner of the world, to share in what she has given us. She does indeed have many unique talents. Our world is a better place with her in it.
http://moi-alizee.us/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

[Rev]

First, catching up with the thread...

I am from that era as well, a Vietnam vet etc.
I think I have you beat on The Flying Nun... Do you remember when Annette from The Mickey Mouse Club "developed" overnight? It is still a mystery how that happened so fast but I remember it was the talk of the neighborhood at the time.

You would be surprised what some of us remember. Black & white was surprisingly realistic. ;)


We're just speculating... I personally do not believe Alizee was "forced" into doing the sexy dance... like somebody mentioned before, what about the La Isla Bonita dance?? Similar, except for the less showy outfit...

La Isla Bonita is pure class. She was amazing in that video. However, I did get a kick out of the choice of camera angles at a few key times - like Elvis on the Ed Sullivan show (remember that AF?).

For JEAM, although she was clearly having fun most of the time, I thought I did spot one or two moments where she may have been slightly self conscious.

JUST HIGHLIGHTS

Oh, now you've got me started. Bad move. :D

...Sex for me is a joining of spirits, not just of bodies, so who the person is becomes more important than what her body is like....

... Both [ extremes] try to separate the spiritual and the sexual, resulting in the death of both. Because they belong together, and when separated they lose something vital...

...To the extent your stereotype is accurate it's a reaction to our nation's puritan past. In trying to be liberated from the chains placed on sexuality in that past, people mainly show that the chains are still there. A rebel isn't free, he's trying to become free. When he actually is free, he won't need to rebel any more....

...I never cheated on my wife when I was married, nor on any girlfriend I had a monogamous relationship with, but I have no scruples about getting involved with someone else's wife or girlfriend, if their relationship has decayed to the point where she'd be willing to do that...

...it's the emotional commitment that matters....

Deepwaters, as usual I agree with you completely (almost - Remind me never to introduce you to my wife). ;)

Until I saw your previous post, I was going to ask if you had participated in skyclad rituals (although I assumed you had). Is there enough extra "juice" in doing them skyclad to make it worthwhile?

[AmericanFan]

I remember watching Ed's "really big shoe" but not seeing Elvis on it. But that is where I saw The Beatles for the first time.
It amazes me that nobody cares about Ozzie & Harriet.

[fsquared]

I remember watching Ed's "really big shoe" but not seeing Elvis on it. But that is where I saw The Beatles for the first time.
It amazes me that nobody cares about Ozzie & Harriet.

All I remember is that it was kind of scandalous that they were shown sitting in bed together on TV chatting and the only reason it was allowed was that they were married in real life. Right?

[AmericanFan]

Right... do you remember their last name?
And try this one.... Remember Sheri Lewis and Lambchop?

[Rev]

I remember watching Ed's "really big shoe" but not seeing Elvis on it. But that is where I saw The Beatles for the first time.
It amazes me that nobody cares about Ozzie & Harriet.

Ozzie & Harriet was OK, but not one of my faves.

Here is s tough one for you, do you remember the "American Farmer" program?

[fsquared]

Right... do you remember their last name?
And try this one.... Remember Sheri Lewis and Lambchop?

Nelson, right? Was their daughter Traci?
And I remember when Sheri died of some cancer a few years back.

[AmericanFan]

I don't remember American Farmer. The only thing that came to mind was that old fart on Wild Kingdom. I don't know why.
I don't remember Traci Nelson.
Anyway Lambchop was a sock over Sheri Lewis's hand that she used as a puppet. Imagine watching that stoned.

[Solaris]

Old people have hijacked the thread! XD

[RadioactiveMan]

Moi-alizee.us as a forum is lacking in funny and nearly relevant pictures. I am to remedy that.

http://www.uwm.edu/Dept/CUTS/signs/elderly.jpg

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k252/RTBrooke/hijack.gif

[AmericanFan]

http://www.classicmedia.tv/assets/circles/lambchop.gif

[lefty12357]

Well I know a little ancient history, Ricky Nelson was the son of Ozzie & Harriet and was a musician. I have a collection of old records I inherited and one of them is Ricky Nelson.

[AmericanFan]

Ancient history? Now that wasn't nice.... I'll throw my walker at you!

[Deepwaters]

Deepwaters, as usual I agree with you completely (almost - Remind me never to introduce you to my wife). ;)


LOL. Why? Don't you trust her? ;)

(I won't even ask if you trust me.) :D


Until I saw your previous post, I was going to ask if you had participated in skyclad rituals (although I assumed you had). Is there enough extra "juice" in doing them skyclad to make it worthwhile?

Nah. The only value to it is that it jolts the participants out of their normal routine mindset. As far as I can tell, it has no magical value over and above a well-designed set of robes. I've done it because I was part of a Gardnerian coven years ago, and it was part of the ritual.

[Rev]

I don't remember American Farmer. The only thing that came to mind was that old fart on Wild Kingdom. I don't know why.
I don't remember Traci Nelson.
Anyway Lambchop was a sock over Sheri Lewis's hand that she used as a puppet. Imagine watching that stoned.

American Farmer was the ONLY program on at 6AM. Half an hour watching farm machinery roll along.

Anyway, getting back on track, we were talking about Alizée's perfect posterior. :)

[CFHollister]

Anyway, getting back on track, we were talking about Alizée's perfect posterior (weren't we). :)

LOL, after a fashion... :p

[AmericanFan]

Ah yes, a fine specimen indeed. I really have a "feel" for those. :)

[Solaris]

OLD PEOPLE GO MAKE ANOTHER THREAD!!!! stop hijacking this one. XD

Is that dude down there retarded? this whole page is full of nonsense...but i digress.

[RadioactiveMan]

You know old people. They just love to ramble.

[Rev]

OLD PEOPLE GO MAKE ANOTHER THREAD!!!! stop hijacking this one. XD

You know old people. They just love to ramble.

Get with it kids. The only one still off track is you.

By the way, I hope Alizée keeps the 4 dancers for a few numbers. I thought they really added to the show.

[AmericanFan]

Get with it kids. The only one still off track is you.

By the way, I hope Alizée keeps the 4 dancers for a few numbers. I thought they really added to the show.

There were others? Who was watching those?

[Solaris]

Want a good example of nude art? visit SISSou's myspace. Very talented and a friend of lili's. http://www.myspace.com/sissouiart

[fsquared]

By the way, I hope Alizée keeps the 4 dancers for a few numbers. I thought they really added to the show.

Are you talking about the En Concert performance dancers Audrey, Sandrine, Laetitia and Stéphanie?

Actually there's a thread about them over at AFC:
http://www.alizee-fanclub.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=2185

At least one has her own website:

http://www.zoometclic.com/laetitia.html

[Edcognito]

Having done skyclad (=naked) rituals with a wide variety of people, including some who were old, fat, or ugly, I don't agree with that, either, AF. Here, a quote from my novel in progress that's appropriate:

((snippage - just for brevity))

Just separate the concept of nudity in your mind from sex. It's possible to be naked without being sexual, you know. And also possible to be sexual without being naked. Only the nudity taboo causes people to reflexively connect the two.

That is the most important sentence i've read in a while!

While most young guys (and quite a few older guys) never get out of the "sex" mindset, I feel (and this is JUST my opinion) that in America its worse than in many European countries.

In my experience, it IS possible to appreciate a person's good points, or beauty, without it being sexual at all. I don't personally have a "gay" bone in my body (pardon the pun...) but i've seen many men who are obviously (to my eyes) attractive, well put together, or whatever you wanna call it. Is it wrong for me to perceive this in them? Not at all, its just a natural human reaction that in America is subject to such a degree of prudery that its almost unbelievable!

A woman can't breastfeed in public without risking the moralists outrage that she would "dare" bare a breast in public.

Similarly, appreciating a woman dancing (like Alizée) can/is a very separate experience from dancing with my wife. In America we are SO repressed about sex, and enjoying it responsibly that its really taken us 50 years to get to the point where STD's are spoken of somewhat rationally. I phrase it that way, because some of the older members here might remember the early 80's, and when AIDS first came out - it was a "haitian" or "Gay" disease and a judgment from god. Its a bloody dam virus and thats it. So we have made a little progress in my lifetime, but we need to make QUITE a bit more..........

Just a last thought. I have absolutely ZERO interest in "nailing" her, or sleeping with her, or having sex with Alizée. Not because I don't feel an attraction to her - I think she is just GORGEOUS! But because i've gotten to a point in my journey, where that just isn't a necessary part of my makeup.

In any event - I don't believe her dances are in any way degrading to her. Did the Venus D'Milo feel embarrassed? I doubt it! :)

Ed:cool:

[fsquared]

A woman can't breastfeed in public without risking the moralists outrage that she would "dare" bare a breast in public.


Yeah, did you guys hear about the lady who got kicked off a plane by a flight attendant who got offended by her breastfeeding on the plane?
This led to several "nurse-in" protests at airports and people holding up placards saying stuff like "Breasts: Not Just For Selling Cars Anymore!"

[Edcognito]

Old people have hijacked the thread! XD

WATCH YOUR MOUTH SONNY! OR I'LL RUN OVER YOU WITH MY WALKER!

Ed:cool:

[Rev]

Just a last thought. I have absolutely ZERO interest in "nailing" her, or sleeping with her, or having sex with Alizée. Not because I don't feel an attraction to her - I think she is just GORGEOUS! But because i've gotten to a point in my journey, where that just isn't a necessary part of my makeup.

Ed:cool:

Just keep telling your wife that and you will be OK. ;)

[Rev]

There were others? Who was watching those?

I will admit not the first time, but eventually...

Are you talking about the En Concert performance dancers Audrey, Sandrine, Laetitia and Stéphanie?


Yes. I thought they really were choreographed well, emphasized Alizée well, and kept the stage energy moving.

[Deepwaters]

In my experience, it IS possible to appreciate a person's good points, or beauty, without it being sexual at all.


I'm going to quibble with this slightly. Yes, it's possible, IF for some reason the person is someone to whom you cannot be sexually attracted. You used the example of male beauty appreciated by a straight guy. I find there are some women that fall into the same category for me: I appreciate their beauty in an aesthetic way, without being sexually attracted.

However, women of that sort are, for me, few and far between. And I cannot honestly say that I view most attractive women in a completely non-sexual way, even though I would be unwilling actually to have sex with most of them. Feeling desire, and choosing to act on it, are after all not the same thing.

Which brings me to another thing.


Just a last thought. I have absolutely ZERO interest in "nailing" her, or sleeping with her, or having sex with Alizée. Not because I don't feel an attraction to her - I think she is just GORGEOUS! But because i've gotten to a point in my journey, where that just isn't a necessary part of my makeup.


Dude -- you're married. Happily, by all I can see. Why would you want to risk that for something that has little chance of working out, even if it could get started? (We already know you don't speak any French. Would you be willing to move there? Would you really want to immerse yourself in a pop-star lifestyle?)

So of course you're not interested, but please excuse my skepticism here: I don't believe it has anything to do with having gotten to any particular point in your journey. You're not interested because you have a good relationship going and you have no desire to throw it away. If your situation were different, you might view things differently.

And finally, just so this doesn't look like I'm picking on you:


In any event - I don't believe her dances are in any way degrading to her. Did the Venus D'Milo feel embarrassed? I doubt it! :)


Agreed, completely!

[fsquared]

So of course you're not interested, but please excuse my skepticism here: I don't believe it has anything to do with having gotten to any particular point in your journey. You're not interested because you have a good relationship going and you have no desire to throw it away. If your situation were different, you might view things differently.



Well, perhaps his statement regarding his "point in his journey" encompasses the assertion that he has a good relationship going (and perhaps by extension that he envisions his journey continuing with the same good relationship, into the sunset...) as opposed necessarily to a linear chronological interpretation.

[Ali]

I think the point others were trying to make was precisely that she could do it without being trashy or inappropriate, and that nudity needn't always be so. Which I completely agree with, not that I think she will anyway.

I just can't picture her in nude even if she is not being "trasy or inappropriate", I just like her 'as is'. :) I think she has certain morals, values and belief system that she will not cross and not posing nude is one of them.

[SupaKrupa]

It may or may not be degrading, but more than half of us wouldn't be here if she didn't do it so I'm not regretting anything, and neither should she.

[Capn]

I think you are all over thinking this she does not seem regretful to me. She doesn't look upset at all in any of her performances, she looks like shes having fun so why don't we not assume things based on nothing.

[AmericanFan]

I don't personally have a "gay" bone in my body (pardon the pun...) but...

I didn't catch that until you wrote "pardon the pun" then I spit coffee all over my keyboard! And yes, some came out my nose!


Just a last thought. I have absolutely ZERO interest in "nailing" her, or sleeping with her, or having sex with Alizée. Not because I don't feel an attraction to her - I think she is just GORGEOUS! But because i've gotten to a point in my journey, where that just isn't a necessary part of my makeup.
Ed:cool:

That could also be taken out of context. I'm tempted to go the comical route and suggest some of the newer prescription drugs on the market. You were on a roll until you failed to provide details of your reasoning. In any case, I'll let the opportunity pass. :D

Other than your choice of words in a few places, I agree with you completely!

[Runner Simon]

I think no it is not degrading more then some people do it. But still comprare to other "stars" I'd say it's really cool. Also the girl side of my friends thinks the moves is really cool and they just think it is impossible to do what she does ;P

[OGRE]

...where that just isn't a necessary part of my makeup.


Et d'un amour, sans maquillage.
:wub::)

[Ange]

I don't find her dance degrading, really I don't and I am a woman so it would upset me if Alizee went too far. Alizee was just being a little flirty for a few seconds and it's not a big deal!

[Calisto]

I could easily right out multiple paragraphs on this subject, but pretty much everything I want to say has already been said.

So i'll just simply state that I do not believe it was degrading at all, it isn't a vulgar dance.. it is a sexy, yet beautiful dance. There is a pretty big line between sexy and vulgar and she comes no where near crossing it.

[OGRE]

You were on a roll until you failed to provide details of your reasoning. In any case, I'll let the opportunity pass.

Let me help explain. Go to an art museum. You will find beautiful works of art, many a tribute to the human body and form. What fills your being...your soul? Do you see sex....or do you see something deeper? Something that transcends our hormonal biological underpinnings. Indeed, something that is so strong it actually supresses the testosterone and delivers a more powerful, deeper, and moving thought. You are elevated to a different plane, beyond instinct...a plane perhaps only reserved for those beings capable of higher reasoning...capable of focusing on an essence beyond simple reproduction or survival.... focused on the essence of the art...the form....the simple, yet astonding, beauty of human.

Sex is superficial. A biological necessity. It can have deeper underpinnings, such as love. But, by itself, it is a genetically superficial act. Focus on sex, and you become blind to the deeper beauty the world has to offer.

We each have our own desires, views, and objectives. Personally, I prefer to approach Alizée like I would watching art. Living art. And not just visually, but in sound and spirit as well. The experience becomes richer. Deeper. I pity those who only see the sex, or where sex is the main driver in their participation. What they miss. What they cannot see...or hear. A deep...very deep appreaciation for beauty...and the art of human form.

So, when Ed said he "has no desire", I can comfortably say it is not due to any lack of desire in general. It's just there are other avenues to express that desire; Alizée isn't in the mix. Because to put her there will objectify the art to the point its soul is lost...and, in so doing, we lose the deep meaning of the art...the beauty of voice....the simple pleasure offered by dance and song...that fills our mind and spirit with joy and peace.

[Deepwaters]

Sex is superficial. A biological necessity. It can have deeper underpinnings, such as love. But, by itself, it is a genetically superficial act. Focus on sex, and you become blind to the deeper beauty the world has to offer.

And here again, I must vehemently disagree. Here again, we see the separation of sexuality and spirituality, so that sex becomes a superficial biological necessity.

Sex IS its "deeper underpinnings." It is precisely the separation of sex from those deeper underpinnings that allows it, on the one hand, to be suppressed, denied, and condemned (or trivialized, as you have done here, OGRE), and on the other hand, to be engaged in without heart, without spirit, without soul.

The deeper beauty the world has to offer IS sexual. One finds parallels and analogues to sex in everything from particle physics to cosmology to mysticism to philosophy. The existence of the universe is lovemaking between Self and Other, and the biological sex act is a reflection of that cosmic reality.

[OGRE]

Well Deep, I think we pretty much killed this thread.

[Edcognito]

Get a grip... every normal guy would want to nail Alizee regardless what she wore. The truth is that there are some girls out there that would be interested too.
In any case, Alizee would have some say in it. She never struck me as the type who would EVER sleep around.
It doesn't matter what she wears. Alizee could dress up in a space suit and still be smokin' hot!

This is what started me Deep. And AF, I'm NOT picking on you or anything - but your comment is not the first like this I've seen and I disagree with them all! :)

I'm going to quibble with this slightly. Yes, it's possible, IF for some reason the person is someone to whom you cannot be sexually attracted. You used the example of male beauty appreciated by a straight guy. I find there are some women that fall into the same category for me: I appreciate their beauty in an aesthetic way, without being sexually attracted.

However, women of that sort are, for me, few and far between. And I cannot honestly say that I view most attractive women in a completely non-sexual way, even though I would be unwilling actually to have sex with most of them. Feeling desire, and choosing to act on it, are after all not the same thing.

Which brings me to another thing.



Dude -- you're married. Happily, by all I can see. Why would you want to risk that for something that has little chance of working out, even if it could get started? (We already know you don't speak any French. Would you be willing to move there? Would you really want to immerse yourself in a pop-star lifestyle?)

So of course you're not interested, but please excuse my skepticism here: I don't believe it has anything to do with having gotten to any particular point in your journey. You're not interested because you have a good relationship going and you have no desire to throw it away. If your situation were different, you might view things differently.

And finally, just so this doesn't look like I'm picking on you:



Agreed, completely!

Never thought you were picking on me! I enjoy "getting you going"!

Deepwaters - I appreciate and encourage your skepticism about my comments, it makes me and everyone else (hopefully) engage their brains. In this tho, thou art (respectfully) wrong! :)

Let me 'splain myself!

This thread started with a question about the nature of the Jeam dance to Alizée. It then moved from a discussion of the specific to a general discussion of sexuality. I was responding from the general back to the specific, and more specifically AF's quote above. I tried to explain why I didn't believe the JEAM dance was "degrading" to Alizée, or to the audience watching.

In saying I feel no need to "nail" her, i was literally telling the absolute, unvarnished truth. I never however said I felt no desire. I was trying to draw a line that you drew much better further on, when you decried the separation of the "spiritual" (for want of a better word) and the sexual.

Sex (imho) is far more than just the physical act. The expression "to nail" is kinda what i was having the problem with and didn't express myself well. I spent 10.5 yrs in the Navy, and was exposed to very many "men" who approached sex/women the same way, never with any deeper understanding or appreciation than the purely physical. As a younger man, I was never comfortable with this approach to women and sex in general, or any girl/woman I was involed with in particular. As you might guess, I never really fit into the armed forces...... :p

I feel that (for me) any discussion of sex with Alizée in reference to ME in particular is like discussing my walking on the moon. Theoretically its possible, but, for all the reasons you described above and others that are specific to me (relating across the age/language/location issues) its not comprehendable as something even remotely possible. If its not even remotely possible, it has very little attraction for me....

Now - getting along to the next thing. None of what I discussed above have anything to do with my relationship with my wife and being married in relation to "nailing" Alizée! My mindset is such that even contemplating (fantasizing) about someone, there has to be some kind of connection beyond the purely perceptual. In other words, I can look at women that i percieve to be desireable (and feel the desire) and never once "want" them or anything to do with them.

If, somehow, someday I were actually to MEET Alizée in a social setting - then all those other considerations would come into play. All this has does have something to do with the journey i feel I (and everyone else) is on. When I was in the Navy - I can honestly (and with no pride) say that many of those years were purely self-absorbed debauchery that I am lucky to have survived and come through (relatively) unscathed. I am to the point now, where there is very, very little desire to "nail" anyone outside the bounds of a relationship built on trust, knowledge, faith and acceptance of another (and myself!).

I hope this explains why, while Alizée is one of the most desireable and beutifull women I can imagine, I honestly do not want to have relations with her.

I know i've been too verbose, and probably scattershotted my ideas, but, well, thats me! :)


Ed

[Deepwaters]

Ah, very good. Ed, I completely misunderstood where you were coming from, probably because I was all worked up responding to others. You and I are on the same page here, almost completely. As I said earlier, there is a difference between a felt desire and a choice. I was hearing you claiming a lack of felt desire, which I don't believe for a split second. What you were actually claiming was about a choice -- and that I do believe.

I would also have to agree that the term "nail" bothers me a bit, too. For much the same reasons as many of the comments on YouTube. You can refer to a woman's attractiveness, to a desire to make love to her, to specific sex acts, etc. in ways that cherish or in ways that degrade. It's all in the attitude.

[Edcognito]

I didn't catch that until you wrote "pardon the pun" then I spit coffee all over my keyboard! And yes, some came out my nose!

That could also be taken out of context. I'm tempted to go the comical route and suggest some of the newer prescription drugs on the market. You were on a roll until you failed to provide details of your reasoning. In any case, I'll let the opportunity pass. :D

Other than your choice of words in a few places, I agree with you completely!

#1 - I apologize for any damage that may have occured to your keyboard or nose.

#2 - Never needed a prescription for that, think I'm fairly well "endowed" with testosterone....

#3 - See the post above for my (somewhat convoluted) reasoning...

#4 - Thanks for getting it! :)

Ed:cool:

[Cooney]

Nope.

Nope.

[Edcognito]

Nope.

Nope.

Nope what? Good lord man! Don't make us GUESS! :eek:



Ed:cool:

[Cooney]

Nope what? Good lord man! Don't make us GUESS! :eek:



Ed:cool:

To the original post that started this thread. I saw nothing in that post worth wasting multiple words on, so I simply replied to it and went on my way. The ten pages of debate following it are beside the point in my mind - my answer to the original post is simply "no" and the rest can hang.

Actually, that's not entirely fair. I had some things to say about projecting one's own moral uptightness on to others, and holding people to a double standard, but it would have come out very impolitely, so I refrained.

[Edcognito]

Et d'un amour, sans maquillage.
:wub::)

/sigh

would some kind soul please translate this for me? I want to know if I should be offended, or complemented! :)


Ed:cool:

[fsquared]

/sigh

would some kind soul please translate this for me? I want to know if I should be offended, or complemented! :)


Ed:cool:

Isn't he quoting from Hey! Amigo! ?
I believe it literally means "a love without makeup" but more metaphorically it means a real, true love, not the kind of "relationships" that the character of the song is having with men at the present (i.e., being a prostitute).

[Edcognito]

Isn't he quoting from Hey! Amigo! ?

:(

How the heck would i know? :confused:


Ed:cool:

p.s. - Hey! Amigo! isn't one of my favs - so I don't have the words down pat..... I know, go stand in the corner and say 25 Hail Alizée's! :D


Ed:cool:

[Deepwaters]

"And of a love without makeup."

In context:

Hey ! Amigo !
Elle veut du haut, elle veut ta peau
Et sur son dos, un tatouage.
Hey ! Amigo !
Mi amigo, elle veut du beau
Et d'un amour, sans maquillage.

Hey! Friend!
She wants on top, she wants your skin
And on her back, a tattoo.
Hey! Friend!
Mi friend, she wants beauty,
And a love without makeup.

[fsquared]

Here's a link to the Anthony analysis thread for Hey! Amigo! This line appears about halfway down.

http://moi-alizee.us/forums/showthread.php?t=1448
Edc, sorry if my first post sounded curt; I posted the first version kind of as a hunch before adding the confirmatory details.

[OGRE]

/sigh

would some kind soul please translate this for me? I want to know if I should be offended, or complemented! :)


Ed:cool:

Ed you said:

".....where that just isn't a necessary part of my makeup".

And I replied (yes it's from Hey Amigo):

"Et d'un amour, sans maquillage" (A love without makeup). I was taking your words and weaving it into an Alizéeism. The sex part was not a part of your makeup (in the attribute sense), which was a similar concept in the song since it involved a prostitute and the desire for love without makeup (in the literal sense, but metaphorically meaning a desire for true love and not just sex).

I was tempted to throw another Alizéeism into the mix, from the same song, spun off your Navy career:

Et sur son dos, un tatouage.
And on his back, a tattoo. (I believe the context is feminine in the song)

Because we know all Navy men have tattoos.;)

As for the song itself, the En Concert version is amazing. Fantastic choreography. YouTube doesn't do it justice, but if you don't have DvD, it's better than nothing. If you can get DvD quality...watch it. Some of the best action closeups of Alizée's face you'll find anywhere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bc7rWXiZJCg

[AmericanFan]

Apparently some clarification is in order. I think we can all agree that Alizee is extremely attractive. She has it all... She is smart, sexy, apparent sense of humor, great character, looks good with incredible talents too. There are no hidden meanings in the random order of qualities. Excuse me if I missed any.
So... any "normal" guy... (by normal I mean alive and heterosexual) would be attracted to her.
I believe that the attraction is the entire package, not one or two single qualities. I have definitely seen prettier girls, better bodies, and greater "apparent" intelligence etc. but rarely are these qualities within one person. Add that to her personality etc. and she is nothing less than incredible.
The term "nail" was used in a broad sense and a quote from a previous post. Obviously someone with her qualities should be given more consideration than a "one night-er". She is definitely a keeper.
Ironically in our feverish debate few have considered or elaborated on Alizee's interests. She could have nearly any guy she wanted in the world. The truth is that none of us were even on the list. We talk as if we had an option in the first place. In a pathetic way, it is funny.
I would be a liar if I claimed not to admire her or be attracted to her but even if by some miracle the opportunity presented itself, I wouldn't want it to go beyond that. I know that comes across like a contradiction but there are other circumstances to consider.
First and foremost, we both have commitments to others. Not just spouses but children. When we became parents we discarded the luxury of selfishness. That alone supercedes any possible mutual attraction.
Next is the age differential. My wife is MUCH younger than I am. While we have a great marriage (at least for me anyway) there are some issues that I failed to consider before we got together. Little things like our taste in music. Events that I not only witnessed, but participated in, she learned about in school. Either she wasn't born yet or was too young to comprehend world events.
Our visit to the Vietnam Memorial was a very emotional experience for me. Yet for my wife, it was like seeing Hoover Dam or some other national landmark. So with a little imagination you can see we are missing out on some important things that couples should be able to share.
Another is Alizee wants to perform. I want to relax and have fun. I'm done working 24/7. Living the celebrity lifestyle would really suck! I'm content with yelling at kids to get off my lawn!
I'm sure these were some of the same reasons for others. They simply didn't bother with the detailed explanation of why they wouldn't want to be on Alizee's list. Clearly it wasn't the alleged problems I joked about.
I hope that covers it.

[Rev]

The deeper beauty the world has to offer IS sexual. One finds parallels and analogues to sex in everything from particle physics to cosmology to mysticism to philosophy. The existence of the universe is lovemaking between Self and Other, and the biological sex act is a reflection of that cosmic reality.

The Dance of Divinity.

Radha, Radha, Radha, Govinda jai.

[fsquared]

The Dance of Divinity.

Radha, Radha, Radha, Govinda jai.

Oooook, how multilingual do we have to be to participate in discussions on this forum, huh? Now it's Sanskrit too? :D

So this is a chant celebrating the Hindu god Govinda/Krishna dancing with his consort Radha, right?

When Radha is addressed with the vocative form "Hare" of her alternate name "Hara", I guess that's where "Hare Krishna" comes from....

[Deepwaters]

Oooook, how multilingual do we have to be to participate in discussions on this forum, huh? Now it's Sanskrit too? :D

We're a talented, erudite bunch around here. ;)

AF, a lot of that is true for most people here. She's fantasy material for most, and most guys wouldn't want to be involved with her that way, if they really thought about it. I've discussed that before on other threads. One thing you didn't mention is that she'd be gone a lot of the time, off doing pop-star stuff, and would not be there for her lover or husband. A lot of people would find that hard to take.

However, that's not really the point anyway. The point is self-awareness and honesty about one's feelings, which (for I think the third time) are not the same thing as intent. And this meshes with the whole question of attitudes toward sex in general. It's one of my pet peeves.

I have a suspicion, actually, that part of the reason we get guys denying that Alizée arouses any sexual feelings in them, is simply because they respect her, and thanks to the lingering disease of puritanism those two sets of feelings are all too often incompatible.

[AmericanFan]

AF, a lot of that is true for most people here. She's fantasy material for most,... Technically speaking, she is fantasy material for anyone except her husband. :rolleyes:


and most guys wouldn't want to be involved with her that way, if they really thought about it. I've discussed that before on other threads. One thing you didn't mention is that she'd be gone a lot of the time, off doing pop-star stuff, and would not be there for her lover or husband. A lot of people would find that hard to take.

That point didn't cross my mind because if I did go that route I'd be with her anyway. In my mind family comes first. Other arrangements could be made to keep parents & kids together in almost any situation if the desire is strong enough. I seriously doubt that she is a part-time mother / wife in favor of her career either. If she was that would seriously damage my opinion of her.
One major point I failed to mention was the subject of sex. I admit that I really enjoy her performances and have a natural attraction towards her, I'm not the sex crazed manic I was at 17. Bottom line is that I'm not in love with her so the sexual part isn't that great of an attraction.

However, that's not really the point anyway. The point is self-awareness and honesty about one's feelings, which (for I think the third time) are not the same thing as intent. And this meshes with the whole question of attitudes toward sex in general. It's one of my pet peeves.

I have a suspicion, actually, that part of the reason we get guys denying that Alizée arouses any sexual feelings in them, is simply because they respect her, and thanks to the lingering disease of puritanism those two sets of feelings are all too often incompatible.

I'm pretty sure that I don't have any visible traces of puritanism in me and seriously doubt that I have any bizarre sexual hangups. Yet I too maintain a great deal of respect for her and her family. If she were to abuse the trust of her family for any reason, the admiration and attraction would instantly vanish.

I'm glad I finally grew up but life seemed a lot more fun before.

You have a unique style of writing. Besides the fact that I agree with 99% of your views, I enjoy your "black & white" style. You would never survive as a politician but you'd make a hell of an author! Thanks!

[Deepwaters]

Technically speaking, she is fantasy material for anyone except her husband. :rolleyes:


Not necessarily. When I say "fantasy material" I mean someone who is fun to dream about but where there is no intent to act on the attraction. If I were to decide I actually wanted to act on it, the fact that she's married wouldn't stop me. The point I was making is that most people here wouldn't really be interested even if she were single.


That point didn't cross my mind because if I did go that route I'd be with her anyway. In my mind family comes first. Other arrangements could be made to keep parents & kids together in almost any situation if the desire is strong enough. I seriously doubt that she is a part-time mother / wife in favor of her career either. If she was that would seriously damage my opinion of her.
Well, that's a pretty unrealistic appraisal of the situation, I think. One cannot do two things at the same moment. If one has a full-time career, one is, ipso facto, a part-time spouse/parent. I believe in fact that that's a big part of why she dropped out of performing for several years. She had said before this happened that she wanted to have a child at age 20. And she was experienced enough by then to know that she couldn't be a mother to a newborn and do the things she was doing as a performer at the same time. There were also musical considerations I think, and a desire to move in a different direction, but that was surely a big part of it.

There is simply no way that she can have the same amount of time in a day for her family now that she did a year ago. Choices have to be made. She made one when she decided to drop out of music, get married, and have her daughter. She's made another one now in returning to music. There are consequences to both choices. That's reality.


I'm pretty sure that I don't have any visible traces of puritanism in me and seriously doubt that I have any bizarre sexual hangups. Yet I too maintain a great deal of respect for her

Well, sure. How can anyone who isn't a complete jerk not respect her? But what I meant was, lingering puritanism makes it impossible for some people to respect her and at the same time think of her in a sexual way. Since they do respect her, they remove the sexuality from their minds.


If she were to abuse the trust of her family for any reason, the admiration and attraction would instantly vanish.
Well, again, you have to look at the reality of the situation. It's not fair to make a blanket statement like that without considering the details. I divorced my wife, with whom I have two daughters, for an excellent reason: she was physically abusive and would try to beat me up on a regular basis. I have no remorse about doing that (my remorse lies in getting involved that deeply with her in the first place). There are other good reasons to end a relationship, too.

In my experience, it's impossible to break up a relationship from the outside unless it's already breaking up from within. Nobody's irresistible, not even me :p - and if a relationship is solid and happy, she'll say no. But be flattered even so. :D This is why I have no scruples about going after someone who's married, if the heart is willing.


You have a unique style of writing. Besides the fact that I agree with 99% of your views, I enjoy your "black & white" style. You would never survive as a politician but you'd make a hell of an author! Thanks!Thank you sir! [Bow]

Since I am an aspiring author and the idea of going into politics makes me cringe, from your lips to the ears of the Gods! :)

[fsquared]

Well, that's a pretty unrealistic appraisal of the situation, I think. One cannot do two things at the same moment. If one has a full-time career, one is, ipso facto, a part-time spouse/parent.



Well, some entertainers try harder than others. Faith Hill and Tim McGraw have talked about going on tour with their three kids and how they do their best to be there as parents and etc....Not disagreeing with your point though.

[Edcognito]

Ed you said:

".....where that just isn't a necessary part of my makeup".

And I replied (yes it's from Hey Amigo):

"Et d'un amour, sans maquillage" (A love without makeup). I was taking your words and weaving it into an Alizéeism. The sex part was not a part of your makeup (in the attribute sense), which was a similar concept in the song since it involved a prostitute and the desire for love without makeup (in the literal sense, but metaphorically meaning a desire for true love and not just sex).

I was tempted to throw another Alizéeism into the mix, from the same song, spun off your Navy career:

Et sur son dos, un tatouage.
And on his back, a tattoo. (I believe the context is feminine in the song)

Because we know all Navy men have tattoos.;)

As for the song itself, the En Concert version is amazing. Fantastic choreography. YouTube doesn't do it justice, but if you don't have DvD, it's better than nothing. If you can get DvD quality...watch it. Some of the best action closeups of Alizée's face you'll find anywhere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bc7rWXiZJCg

Thankyou Ogre, that was quite apropo! As for your second part, you should have thrown it in, i do (indeed!) have a tatoo! :)


Ed:cool:

[El Cid de Compeador]

Nope.



Nope.



You hit it on the "shes beautiful" note. That's all you need. Art can be provocative. Art can be sensual. Art can be sexy. And it doesn't have to be bad. Alizée is a walking art museum. A museum full of wonderful beautiful art and song. Just enjoy the art.

By the way, when it come to the JEAM dance, the art I focus on is the eyes and smile. I see so many entertainers have to fake smiles. I can tell. That's a genuine real smile from someone really enjoying doing what they're doing.

Eh, quite honestly, I have to agree with Mr. Ogre. She IS a walking art museum.

I hadn't even SEEN the MV for JEAM until y'all mentioned it. I was merely a Project Playlist junky checking out an artist that a friend recommended. Quite honestly, the MV matters... not very much in comparison with the actual song, and as Ogre said, her facial expression. So full of life, exuberance, and very happeh.

The true mood, her and her opinion can be shown through her expression. Of course, she could have a politician's face and be good at masking emotions. :D

This has been a very jumbled, unorganized opinion from Trevor.

[Rev]

By the way, when it come to the JEAM dance, the art I focus on is the eyes and smile. I see so many entertainers have to fake smiles. I can tell. That's a genuine real smile from someone really enjoying doing what they're doing.

I have a question for you, does Mylene have real or a fake smile in this video of Désenchantée?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRUcs-9wC4

[Hylas1896]

I haven't posted much in this thread, or on this site for that matter, but I think the main point here is this.

The main problem is that -people- degrade Alizée, not that -the dance- degrades Alizée. Think of the jerks on YouTube.

Now certain types of dancing tends to bring out more of the degrading side of people, but that doesn't mean the dance necessarily 'asks for it.' The fault for degradation lies in the degrader, the viewer. As for the nature of the dance itself, that is for Alizée to worry about, and we can only guess.

Hylas1896

[Killian]

I haven't posted much in this thread, or on this site for that matter, but I think the main point here is this.

The main problem is that -people- degrade Alizée, not that -the dance- degrades Alizée. Think of the jerks on YouTube.

Now certain types of dancing tends to bring out more of the degrading side of people, but that doesn't mean the dance necessarily 'asks for it.' The fault for degradation lies in the degrader, the viewer. As for the nature of the dance itself, that is for Alizée to worry about, and we can only guess.

Hylas1896

That is true to an extent. A person may degrade something that is beautiful and meaning, such as Alizée, and therefore, become a degrader. But in reality, if the original content isn't degrading, than the only person being let down is the person who views it as such, as they don't have the sense to see beyond their blind opinions and look at what is underneath. They are allowing ignorance to distort their view of the artform. I mean if a person views the Venus de Milo as degrading to women does that make it so? Of course not, because it wasn't intended to do so. The same is true for Alizée. If people choose to believe that the content is degrading, they are misleading themselves. She was expressing herself in a way that was playful and sexy, perhaps a representation of her personality, and as such isn't degrading, regardless of those who wish to view it as such.

Another way to look at it is view the other end of the spectrum. If somthing is degrading, such as pornography (sorry if thats too extreme), but someone wishes to view it as a beautiful and respectful artform, do they become a redeemer? No, they don't, because the way they view it does not alter the reality of the situation...

[El Cid de Compeador]

How about this? Enjoy the music. Anyone who wants to be a killjoy can go stuff themselves. :D

[Youpidou1]

I knew when I first saw the JEAM video over the summer that this beautiful goddess was beautiful and had more than a great body. I myself don't EVER EVER EVER say anything degrading about someone and their image. But I was thinking to myself why would she go out in such an outfit that shows that much. I thought it was kind of wrong and then I looked up her old songs and then I found Moi Lolita and that seemed to put everything in its place. And thats where I began to listen to her songs and watch her videos, they just suck me in everytime. :D But everyone must understand that there are people in this world that look beyond the body and look inside to the body for a great heart, personality, and a sense of humor. Then there are the occasional no brain idiots who say degrading things lest do they know about who is watching and is saying something about them because they didn't like the comment. Besides, if Alizée was uncomfortable or wasn't happy with the costume, don't you think that she would say something? I would but then again in the interview from Italy, she says "she plays a role like in the movies." Her image? I suppose, degrading/and her feelings about that dance? We will not know until she tells us. I hope she will tell us. This is boggling my mind as well. Good luck everyone. And I can't wait to see more peoples opinions about this subject

[Hylas1896]

But in reality, if the original content isn't degrading, than the only person being let down is the person who views it as such, as they don't have the sense to see beyond their blind opinions and look at what is underneath.

Right... most anyone has experienced being degraded by others when they weren't themselves doing or being anything degrading. When this happens we all know who is at fault. Unfortunately, people can choose to degrade anything.


Another way to look at it is view the other end of the spectrum. If somthing is degrading, such as pornography (sorry if thats too extreme), but someone wishes to view it as a beautiful and respectful artform, do they become a redeemer? No, they don't, because the way they view it does not alter the reality of the situation...

Comment: There are certainly some things, such as pornography, which invite degradation. Regardless, this gives no excuse to accept that invitation. Now even when things are degrading in the absolute sense, as you say, responsibility remains with the viewer. It certainly never solely rests with the 'actor'. Why? The reason why a particular person does something degrading, whether it be out of coercion, for popularity, or in absolute free will is irrelevant as far as the viewers responsibility is concerned. The actors responsibility is ultimately unknown and often beyond the sphere of the viewers influence.

Sometimes avoiding degradation means avoiding viewing certain things completely, but most often it is in avoiding the automatic magnification and obsession with the degrading, whether real, imagine, or nonexistent.

Back to Alizée:

This is what truly makes me angry about the YouTube pricks... their desire to magnify and relish in degradation, real or imagined. It's practically a goal, because apparently for them wonderful (http://youtube.com/watch?v=DzF5QxP1Jmo) is not enough.

Hylas

[Capn]

That is true to an extent. A person may degrade something that is beautiful and meaning, such as Alizée, and therefore, become a degrader. But in reality, if the original content isn't degrading, than the only person being let down is the person who views it as such, as they don't have the sense to see beyond their blind opinions and look at what is underneath. They are allowing ignorance to distort their view of the artform. I mean if a person views the Venus de Milo as degrading to women does that make it so? Of course not, because it wasn't intended to do so. The same is true for Alizée. If people choose to believe that the content is degrading, they are misleading themselves. She was expressing herself in a way that was playful and sexy, perhaps a representation of her personality, and as such isn't degrading, regardless of those who wish to view it as such.

Another way to look at it is view the other end of the spectrum. If somthing is degrading, such as pornography (sorry if thats too extreme), but someone wishes to view it as a beautiful and respectful artform, do they become a redeemer? No, they don't, because the way they view it does not alter the reality of the situation...

You are taking a double stance on this topic. You argue that if someone looks at something as if it is degrading but it wasn't intended to be than it still isn't. Next you claim pornography is degrading regardless of how someone may view it but that is suggesting that the person who made it intended it to be. This can't be decided by you if you ask many porn stars honestly admit to enjoying their jobs and many porn stars consider what they do as artistic as films so you really shouldn't jump to conclusions based on YOUR opinion compared to the people directly involved.

[Deepwaters]

There is a difference between pornography and erotica. Some of the stuff you find on the web that's called porn, is actually erotica. A lot of it, though, really is porn. How do you tell the difference?

If someone is called an insulting name, like "slut," it's porn. If someone is reduced to a piece of meat, it's porn. If someone is treated with contempt, it's porn. The inclusion of sex doesn't make something pornography, but the degrading of sex and its reduction to nothing but a "biological necessity" -- or a form of humiliation and control -- does.

Alizée has of course never done even mild porn and I'm sure she never will. But the JEAM dance is mild erotica. The song Gourmandises is also erotica, and her video for it is, too. It's a question in my mind whether she'll continue doing that sort of thing now, without Mylène (who's own work features a LOT of erotica) as her lyricist. But she certainly did in the past, and it wasn't, in my opinion, degrading in the least.

[Un-rêve]

I wouldn't say the JEAM costume was degrading and when Alizée returned with her second album and performed on the Hit Machine wearing it, every fan on certain Alizée forums went " Gaga " over the whole performance more than the actual costume.
You have to remember JEAM got to No4 and I don't just believe that was because Alizée had been away for a couple of years. ;) I personally luv that outfit, but it was the way that Alizée danced and the fun and joy that she had with it that was so amazing to me. :wub:
The performance was done tastefully and if anything Christina Aguillera's " Dirty " video that was being played around the same time could be considered more degrading.
Anyway after all is said and done, the French public didn't like the outfit and Alizée started performing JEAM wearing trousers which must've been hard for Alizée to perform her amazing dance moves in. :( I personally believe the French public over reacted because Madonna has worn more revealing outfits and she's considered the queen of Pop!

[Scruffydog777]

I think it's obvious by the look on her face she enjoyed it. She's at the stage of her career where she can't believe how popular she is and how much her fans, male or female enjoy looking at her.

[Joey_adore_Jung]

it's not degrading, especially since she was enjoying it, i mean she wasn't being vulgar, just dancing to a beautiful song, and looking great in the dress she had to wear for it, until they changed it to trousers, though she still looks great in them trousers i must say.

[Roman]

My two cents: NO!
I don't think she had a problem with it. The first video I saw of Alizée was the JEAM 2003-03-15. One of the things I really liked about that particular performance was her big smile at the beginning. If she was faking that happy look, she's a master of that. I think we must be careful about thinking she is too shy. She said that when she gets on stage and does her performance she isn't nervous or shy anymore. I believe that. If she's shy, I think that's relative to certain other people.

I don't think she thought it was degrading at all and said she was surprised at people's reaction to the outfit good and bad. I find it a bit disturbing that some people would react especially negatively toward it. Maybe she was just too good/too sexy and they felt threatened by it or because when she did ML they thought it was cute, but then she became too old for young kid cute. I think she was a bit embarrassed by the JPVA thing because people put photos out and made a big deal about it rather than just enjoying the performance and leaving it at that.

I think she's all the more appealing and sexy because she didn't play it "hot and heavy" like so many other similar performers including Britney, Agular, etc. It's like she just has it and they have to "work it" or something. I don't know. That's not a good explanation either. But, it was perhaps more natural in her mind. That is, she's naturally not a slut and that shows and therefore is not degrading. (perhaps a bit of a tease though :p - she's coy, a coquette and that's what we like, that's what it is - it's an art that seems to have died and was brought to life grandiose by Alizée "my coquettish queen")

[OGRE]

I think we must be careful about thinking she is too shy. She said that when she gets on stage and does her performance she isn't nervous or shy anymore. I believe that. If she's shy, I think that's relative to certain other people.

Concur. You can be a very shy person when it comes to other people and social environments, while at the same time being able to perform comfortably when exercising one's skills in a group, speech, or entertainment environment. I know....because I am, and I do.

[dreamer]

Just found this old thread...

OK, well I have an opinionated question...
do you think that the j'en ai marre dance was degrading to alizee?
Seeing all those people watching her butt when she turned over, and every man yelling and cheering, she must have hated doing it! She probably was forced by mylene.. because she NEVER looks happy when she does it..

Huh? She never looked happy? Watch her performance on TOTP in April 2003. She was wearing the short version of the sailor costume and from the look on her face when she started her "butt solo" I would say she loved it.
Anyway, I don't think the performance itself was degrading but the way some nitwits react to it (i.e. "I want to f*ck you"-comments on youtube) can be.

[Nicolas]

We can't just try to guess what were her thoughts and if she liked or not doing this kind of dance!
In my opinion it gets vulgar at the time it's not discret and doesn't have anything to do with the music... The costume has something to do with the music and the lyrics but it's not her fault, if someone should be pointed as guilty by this costume is Myléne, who designed all her clothes...







__________________________________________________ ______

[dreamer]

What's wrong with the costume? I think it's great.:blink:

[lethalsilicong5]

we should text alizee and ask her ourselves ^_^

[Deepwaters]

we should text alizee and ask her ourselves ^_^

She's already answered the question. The answer is no, she didn't find it degrading and doesn't regret any of it.

[HelixSix]

The fact that she doesn't dress AT ALL like she was instructed to before says alot. Just like she doesn't do any kind of dances now that even hint at the possibility of being objectifying.

And do you guys really think she would have said she felt uncomfortable about the clothing she wore knowing that it would throw Mylene under the bus and jeopardize everything to do with the albums? She has always been very smart about what she says in interviews.

[Deepwaters]

The fact that she dresses differently now reflects the fact that she's older now and crafting her own image. And one can either choose to believe what she says in interviews or believe that she's a liar; I prefer the former, although of course I can't prove it.

There are many possible reasons why she would choose to present herself differently now. That she considers her old performances e.g. of JEAM "degrading" is only one of them, and frankly not a very strong one, especially since she specifically states to the contrary.

[fsquared]

The fact that she doesn't dress AT ALL like she was instructed to before says alot. Just like she doesn't do any kind of dances now that even hint at the possibility of being objectifying.

And do you guys really think she would have said she felt uncomfortable about the clothing she wore knowing that it would throw Mylene under the bus and jeopardize everything to do with the albums? She has always been very smart about what she says in interviews.

Well, she also grew up and is at a different phase in her life and career. People can be very different at 17 and at 23.

But your point, I think, is reasonable; her answer is clearly the safest, and to say anything negative about that would be lose-lose. (How well it corresponds to how she REALLY feels is for her to know).

It was interesting when they asked if she kept anything of the old days, and she was like "no, nothing....it was all the production company's stuff anyway". (i.e., no JEAM sailor suit, no raincoat dress, etc. etc.)

[Dark Engine]

That seems to be hella common over there in Europe. Middle and old aged men cheering whenever they see something promiscuous. I was stationed over there and I used to see that a lot. A lot of the military over there would comment how they would like to sleep with little girls that weren't even of age. I'm not saying all European men are perverts. But I guess maybe we're more used to it over here considering what we have on tv on a regular basis. Odd thing is, nudity and softcore porno is pretty regular on lat night tv over there.

[forgot_86]

Well, the black outfit is ok to me, though I would prefer if she wear something that is less revealing. I just don't like it when some of them considered Alizée as only a sex symbol. If it wasn't for the sexy dance and the butt showing stuff, this people wouldn't have care to know Alizée and keep the JEAM vids in their laptop. Some of my friends are like that. Like now, they don't even know that Alizée has a new album, cause they only wanna watch JEAM and JPVA vids. Anyway, it's not like I care about them, so whatever......