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rwd716
09-28-2006, 10:09 PM
Exactly how would you pronounce Alizée's last name?

Would the J sound like the J in Jacques. I imagine it sounding like Jacques--o--tay. Let me know if that's right. P's.

HibyPrime
09-28-2006, 10:19 PM
Exactly how would you pronounce Alizée's last name?

Would the J sound like the J in Jacques. I imagine it sounding like Jacques--o--tay. Let me know if that's right. P's.

I've always pronouced it as sha-koe-té

newalizeefan
09-28-2006, 11:02 PM
isnt it chatelain? or did she not want his last name?

DJ_Greg
09-28-2006, 11:02 PM
Like Hiby said, but with a little bit more "j" in the "sha" (but not too much). I pronounce it like that mp3 says...I think Brad or aFrenchie posted the link.

DJ_Greg
09-28-2006, 11:03 PM
isnt it chatelain? or did she not want his last name?

Pfft! :rolleyes:

brad
09-28-2006, 11:34 PM
Pfft! :rolleyes:

lol!

here is the link to a french text to speech engine ... she is saying 'Alizee Jacotey or Lili'

I have no idea if it is really how it is pronounced, but I know aFrenchie heard it and didnt say it was wrong .. maybe he will confirm.

sounds like I imagined it would tho ...

http://moi-alizee.us/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=21&d=1157832695

Twitch
09-29-2006, 12:27 AM
Ya that's pretty much it, but like English pronounciation is a little different depending on where you are from, this being a little different than where I'm from. It doesn't sound as natural as I would expect a fluent French speaker to say it, if that means anything? Jacotey sounds off, at least from how I say it, and it should be "ou" not "or".

aditya8617
09-29-2006, 12:29 AM
isnt it chatelain? or did she not want his last name?

Yea which last name does she like to use and why? Any guesses?

brad
09-29-2006, 12:48 AM
Yea which last name does she like to use and why? Any guesses?

I would be suprised if she wasn't using her married name, at least officially .. I dont have any facts to base this opinion on though ...

but to me .. she will always just be Alizée

aFrenchie
09-29-2006, 09:37 AM
I know aFrenchie heard it and didnt say it was wrong .. maybe he will confirm.
Yes I do. The mp3 is correct.

Pirate515
10-04-2006, 06:08 PM
Isn't it Chatelain? Or did she not want his last name?I don't think anyone other than Alizee, Jeremy and those close to them know that. It's not even clear if their marriage was officially legalized in France.

aditya8617
10-04-2006, 10:14 PM
It's not even clear if their marriage was officially legalized in France.

I heard that a lot. What does it mean for a marriage to be legalized?

Pirate515
10-04-2006, 10:56 PM
I heard that a lot. What does it mean for a marriage to be legalized?I could be wrong, but I would imagine that a marriage certificate issued by a foreign government institution is not considered to be valid in France and therefore does not carry any legal weight, especially when it's marriage between two French citizens, both of whom permanently reside in France, which is the case with Alizee and Jeremy. As you probably know, Alizee and Jeremy got married in Las Vegas, on a US territory. They tried keeping it a secret for a while, but little did they know that public records are easily accessible to just about anyone here in the US, and it was only a matter of time before some curious fans were able to confirm the rumors and post a scan of their marriage certificate as a proof. But to French authorities their marriage certificate is probably just a worthless piece of paper.

Once again, this is what I think it means, which may or may not be true since I don't know anything about French laws or how their legal system functions.

NANAKI
10-04-2006, 11:05 PM
I could be wrong, but I would imagine that a marriage certificate issued by a foreign government institution is not considered to be valid in France and therefore does not carry any legal weight, especially when it's marriage between two French citizens, both of whom permanently reside in France, which is the case with Alizee and Jeremy. As you probably know, Alizee and Jeremy got married in Las Vegas, on a US territory. They tried keeping it a secret for a while, but little did they know that public records are easily accessible to just about anyone here in the US, and it was only a matter of time before some curious fans were able to confirm the rumors and post a scan of their marriage certificate as a proof. But to French authorities their marriage certificate is probably just a worthless piece of paper.

Once again, this is what I think it means, which may or may not be true since I don't know anything about French laws or how their legal system functions.


Yeah wh ywould a country consider a marriage in another country legal when it is by two citizens of their country. This though isn't right if someone wants to get married they should be able to get married anywhere in the world and it should be legal in every country. Why should two people in love have to get married in multiple countries because it isn't legal because it wasn't in our country.

Matrix
10-10-2006, 03:47 PM
Well.. why on earth wouldnt they get married in France to begin with? Jeremy and Alizee.. quit acting like you both 12yrs old and get married in France and make it legal!!! sheeeesh

RMJ
10-10-2006, 04:04 PM
What's so big deal if they are married or not ?

In fact, I'm surprised that they did in the first place. They don't seem like people who goes to marriage. It's enough for them to be near each other. It's very possible that they never legalized the marriage and never will (or someday in future will if their mind changes and they wants to make it legal for some reason).

I will never get married either. No matter who I'm with. I don't give a shit about some piece of paper that "proves my love".

atra201
10-14-2006, 07:15 PM
lol!

here is the link to a french text to speech engine ... she is saying 'Alizee Jacotey or Lili'

I have no idea if it is really how it is pronounced, but I know aFrenchie heard it and didnt say it was wrong .. maybe he will confirm.

sounds like I imagined it would tho ...

http://moi-alizee.us/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=21&d=1157832695

yeah that's correct i've always pronounced it like in the link

Ange
10-20-2006, 01:28 AM
Their friends say they are married and they married in the US so to me they are in fact married no matter what anyone says.

atra201
10-20-2006, 02:46 AM
marriage is between u and god so if ur married in the us u should be considered married in france cause god is everywhere.

bt_bird_90
10-20-2006, 05:01 AM
marriage is between u and god so if ur married in the us u should be considered married in france cause god is everywhere.

...rrright

HibyPrime
10-20-2006, 11:36 AM
marriage is between u and god so if ur married in the us u should be considered married in france cause god is everywhere.

"Wow lois, can you hear me all the way back there in the 50s?"

atra201
10-21-2006, 05:37 PM
"Wow lois, can you hear me all the way back there in the 50s?"

lol :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
:) :)

riva2model64
10-21-2006, 08:21 PM
What's so big deal if they are married or not ?
I don't give a shit about some piece of paper that "proves my love".

there are other advantages, like here in the US, married couples
get modified/better taxes or something like that

I don't know exactly, cause I'm not married, others would know

atra201
10-21-2006, 08:36 PM
What's so big deal if they are married or not ?

I don't give a shit about some piece of paper that "proves my love".
;)
it's not the piece of paper that proves your love it's the commitment.
and as some girls say commetment is sexier .:D
plus it's better to be married and Always abide by the law boys and girls.
:D :D :D :D

orange2289
11-06-2006, 05:07 PM
I know that I can't wait to get married, to me it better than just being boyfriend and girlfriend, i would rather be husband and wife. Its not the peice of paper that proves your love it the fact that you love each other so much that you want to the whole world to know it. So you take the timeto get married and be Mr. and Ms. Atleast thats how I feel.

RMJ
11-06-2006, 06:32 PM
;)
it's not the piece of paper that proves your love it's the commitment.
and as some girls say commetment is sexier .:D
plus it's better to be married and Always abide by the law boys and girls.
:D :D :D :D

And there's no commitment without that piece of paper ? Quite pathetic if you ask me...

NANAKI
11-06-2006, 07:07 PM
And there's no commitment without that piece of paper ? Quite pathetic if you ask me...

not neccesarily you could be comited to each other and just never get married just that is unheard of but probably happens.

RMJ
11-06-2006, 07:21 PM
Maybe in the States. Not in the rest of the world.


Why to marry when it ends up to divorce in most of the cases ? Isn't that clear sign that marriage has nothing to do with commitment.

orange2289
11-06-2006, 08:36 PM
You don't need a peice of paper to be committed. And a lot of people do get divorced. My parent have been married for 32 year, so I guess my views on being married are different. But yea you can be committed without being married. I guess whatever makes you happy. Like Goldie Hawn and Kurt Russel. they are not married but hey they are happy, and committed.

Twitch
11-07-2006, 01:55 PM
In Canada we have something called common law marriage, basically if you live together long enough as a couple you can qualify for whatever benefits you would have if you were officially married without any of the hassles of actually getting married. You don't need a piece of paper, that's just something lawyers started to make more money...

HibyPrime
11-07-2006, 03:12 PM
In Canada we have something called common law marriage

Sooner or later they are going to allow 3+ people to be married, you just watch.

DJ_Greg
11-08-2006, 02:09 AM
In Canada we have something called common law marriage, basically if you live together long enough as a couple you can qualify for whatever benefits you would have if you were officially married without any of the hassles of actually getting married.

We have that in the States, too.

You don't need a piece of paper, that's just something lawyers started to make more money...

Not exactly. It's also important for things like durable power of attorney for health care (a.k.a., you're in a coma and your spouse has the right to decide whether doctors pull the plug or not).

It's philosophically fine to say "marriage is just a piece of paper," but there are certain legal rights conveyed by that paper, as well. In the coma example, a boyfriend/girlfriend cannot make health care decisions for you, should you be incapable of doing so. A husband/wife can. That's important.

RMJ
11-08-2006, 11:31 AM
Not exactly. It's also important for things like durable power of attorney for health care (a.k.a., you're in a coma and your spouse has the right to decide whether doctors pull the plug or not).
Not an option. Killing is illegal here.

And such option shouldn't be spouse's choice anyways. He/she surely does not have the medical knowledge to decide if it's ok to let someone go. And even if he/she had the required knowledge, he/she wouldn't be in condition to do the choice.

It's doctor's choice if anyones.

Ange
11-08-2006, 11:55 AM
It was Alizee and Jeremy's third wedding anniversary on November 6! Congrats to them!

Cooney
11-08-2006, 08:00 PM
Congrats to Alizée and Jeremy!

Incidently, people sometimes ask what her middle name is, and it's usually replied that it's unknown. Take a peek at their marriage certificate (available online), and one can see that she doesn't have one. I'm not a Nevada lawyer or anything, but I believe it is required on a marriage document (and we can see Jeremy's is there).

aFrenchie
11-08-2006, 08:15 PM
Take a peek at their marriage certificate (available online), and one can see that she doesn't have one. I'm not a Nevada lawyer or anything, but I believe it is required on a marriage document (and we can see Jeremy's is there).
In France, you actually have a secondary and a third name. But they never appear anywhere else than on your civil papers. You won't ever see an initial specified between the first name and the last name here (like in George W. Bush for example).
As for Alizée, I'm pretty sure I've seen her 2nd and 3rd names somewhere on the net (and of course she necessarily has those extra names like any other French).

RMJ
11-08-2006, 08:15 PM
Congrats to Alizée and Jeremy!

Incidently, people sometimes ask what her middle name is, and it's usually replied that it's unknown. Take a peek at their marriage certificate (available online), and one can see that she doesn't have one. I'm not a Nevada lawyer or anything, but I believe it is required on a marriage document (and we can see Jeremy's is there).

Been reading AF lately ? :D


But yea, congrats Lili et Jermy. :)

RMJ
11-08-2006, 08:18 PM
As for Alizée, I'm pretty sure I've seen her 2nd and 3rd names somewhere on the net (and of course she necessarily has those extra names like any other French).

You have seen wrong then. :) Because it does not appear anywhere. No-one knows it. If it exists... There was false information about her middle name in the past but fortunately people has forgotten it already (she was mixed with Jenifer).

But you are saying that French people typically has middle name ? Because you see, we were just having conversation about it:
http://www.alizee-forum.com/ptopic,706246.html#706246

Which way it is ? Do most French has it or not ? Even if it's not used often.

aFrenchie
11-08-2006, 08:30 PM
You have seen wrong then. :) Because it does not appear anywhere. No-one knows it.
Woot, maybe I'm gonna learn you something about her then! If I retrieve them of course :D.

But you are saying that French people typically has middle name ?
Two middle names actually. But they never appear anywhere else than on official paperwork. And generally, you don't even say them because there's that forename fashion in France and you almost always have old grandma/grandpa middle names that you're not very tempted to reveal :D (maybe Alizée's case if I'm mistaken and actually never saw her middle names on the net)

Which way it is ? Do most French has it or not ? Even if it's not used often.
I never ever heard of someone who had none. In fact, I'm sure they're (both middle names) mandatory at birth (and Corsica is no exception, as well as more exotic French islands like Martinique, Guadeloupe or Guyane)

Ange
11-08-2006, 09:04 PM
very interesting

RMJ
11-08-2006, 09:13 PM
I hope you don't mind me quoting your words on AF. :) Because it's valuable information. Thanks a lot clearing this up ! :)

atra201
11-09-2006, 03:05 AM
i'm mad at u Alizee but happy aniversary.jeremy too.

Cooney
11-09-2006, 03:09 AM
Ok aFrenchie, I'm intruiged! Here in the USA, there are people with no middle name at all. It is still far more common to have one, but it is not considered super unusual not to, and it certainly isn't legally required. It hadn't occured to me that it would be required by law.

Would it be unusual, than, for Jeremy to have used his middle name on their marriage certificate? Typically in the US, marriage invitations, programs, and certificates are one of the only places where people ALWAYS put their full name. I've never attended a wedding where that didn't happen (though I've never been a Vegas wedding). I do not know the French tradition.

Thanks for the information, I'm fascinated now!

HibyPrime
11-09-2006, 03:56 AM
What drives someone to fly half-way around of the world to get married at the worst of all places to get married in the world. I don't get it.

Flight: 3, maybe 4 thousand dollars? (CDN)
Vegas marriage: 50 bucks?

Cooney
11-09-2006, 04:19 AM
What drives someone to fly half-way around of the world to get married at the worst of all places to get married in the world. I don't get it.

Flight: 3, maybe 4 thousand dollars? (CDN)
Vegas marriage: 50 bucks?

Actually, Vegas does have lots of full-service weddings, with full size chapels, catering, and services in many of the casinos. While it possible to get a $50 wedding, it isn't the only possibility. I have no idea what location Alizée and Jeremy tied the knot. It could have been in the Little White Wedding Chapel, or it could have been the Bellagio. Both ends of the scale are readily available.

I don't know what reputation Las Vegas has in France, though it is most certainly a destination for travellers from around the world. It has bad sides, and good sides. It is, without a doubt, impressive. I'm a city boy, and am used to the streets of New York, Boston, and Shang-Hai, but I must admit even I was impressed by some parts of the strip.

As for the cost, I've no idea what kind of money Alizée made from her albums, tour, and marketing. Suffice to say, if the everything she made in her whole career was equal to even 10% of what somebody like Britney Spears made in a single year, she should never have money problems again, and the cost of a flight to Vegas would be nothing.

bt_bird_90
11-09-2006, 04:54 AM
I have two first names - redneck style, but only people that have known me a long time get to know it, those are the friends I know I can rely on. I feel so powerless when someone calls me by full name though, that's why only girls I've known a long time, girls I've dated, on rare occasions my buddies' girlfriends that I respect and love too because they are faithful enough that I can trust them with my best of friends, my older sisters, or my mom get to call me it :p . It's mega flattering and cute as hell when I come across a girl that remembers, like the ones I grew up with in school but hadn't talked to in years, not the I trash myself hanging around more and more lately.
*shivers* I love it when those girls call me that

aFrenchie
11-09-2006, 07:29 AM
I hope you don't mind me quoting your words on AF.No problem.

Here's an official article of laws at legifrance.gouv.fr about given names:
http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/WAspad/UnArticleDeCode?commun=CCIVIL&art=57
As you can see, they're talking everywhere about "les prénoms" (plural) that parents have to give to their new child. You can see singular only in the last paragraph because it's about when one first name (one of them) isn't standard, etc...

They don't talk about the two middle names I was talking about but in this phrase, it quite obvious:
"Lorsque ces prénoms ou l'un d'eux, seul ou associé aux autres prénoms ou au nom, lui paraissent contraires à l'intérêt de l'enfant ...."
"When those forenames or one of them, alone or connected with other forenames or with the last name, sound against the child's interest ...."
The bold "s" proves that there are (well, at least) three forenames in all indeed.
Shorter: "one (1) forename connected with other forenames (+ 2 at least)"

(I hope my lame explanations make sense! :D)

Would it be unusual, than, for Jeremy to have used his middle name on their marriage certificate? Typically in the US, marriage invitations, programs, and certificates are one of the only places where people ALWAYS put their full name.
It's the same in France, and sure enough, if they legalized their marriage here, both Jérémy and Alizée had to specify their two middle names. I'm surprised that Alizée didn't do it and that Jérémy gave only one of them in Las Vegas. Or just because they weren't in France and didn't care.

Twitch
11-09-2006, 08:26 AM
This in unconfirmed, but I read somewhere that one of her middle names was Ann (not sure of spelling). And I remember reading somewhere else that one of her grandmothers who recently passed away was also named Ann (spelling?), where the name Annily was supposed to come from. Or was that the false information you were talking about RMJ?

Ben
11-09-2006, 08:39 AM
What drives someone to fly half-way around of the world to get married at the worst of all places to get married in the world. I don't get it.

Flight: 3, maybe 4 thousand dollars? (CDN)
Vegas marriage: 50 bucks?
It's a bit more than 50 bucks at the chapel of Excalibur Restort Casino, where they were married according to one version of the marriage certificate. Not a bad place to tie the knot. A little tacky, but not bad... :D

And, we don't even know if they took this trip with the intention of getting married. Maybe they did, or maybe they just wanted to check out Vegas and decided to do this for fun once they got there. Not including the full names could suggest that they didn't take it too seriously at the time.

Cooney
11-09-2006, 08:41 AM
Here's an official article of laws at legifrance.gouv.fr about given names:
http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/WAspad/UnArticleDeCode?commun=CCIVIL&art=57

Ouch, legalese! Thank you for the link, it certainly does emphasize the presence of at least 3 names other than the surname. I couldn't understand quite all of it, but I'm very interested in the part that talks about a judge determining that a name isn't in the child's best interests, and having the power to give the child a new name. In what sort of situation would that happen? Is that something like it the parents named the child "Hitler?" Is it more for if the names, said together, come out as a profanity?

Sorry to ask so many questions, I'm just genuinely interested!

aFrenchie
11-09-2006, 09:02 AM
Thank you for the link, it certainly does emphasize the presence of at least 3 names other than the surname.
Oops, I've read the article too quickly the first time. You made me re-read it and finally, there's that phrase:
"lorsque les parents de celui-ci ne sont pas connus, l'officier de l'état civil choisit trois prénoms...."

"when parents are not known, the officer of "l'état civil" chooses three forenames...."

aFrenchie
11-09-2006, 09:44 AM
In what sort of situation would that happen? Is that something like it the parents named the child "Hitler?" Is it more for if the names, said together, come out as a profanity?
I don't know if there's been serious issues. I only remember anecdotic weird cases, like some parents who have been refused a forename for their daughter. They called her Mégane while their last name was Renaud. Renault (same pronunciation, both "-d" and "-lt" are mute) is a French car brand and a Mégane is a car model of that brand. So the girl's last name and first name combined would have sounded oddly familiar in France and her little friends at school wouldn't have failed at using it as a joke :)

RMJ
11-09-2006, 10:14 AM
but I'm very interested in the part that talks about a judge determining that a name isn't in the child's best interests, and having the power to give the child a new name. In what sort of situation would that happen? Is that something like it the parents named the child "Hitler?" Is it more for if the names, said together, come out as a profanity?

Yes, we have same law two. The name won't be accepted if it is considered to become problem in person's life.

Real names that aren't allowed are usually connected to racism or other bad things (like Hitler, which you mentioned).

But also, like you guessed, names that when combined creates rude meanings are prohibited. Or names that are purely done for a joke.

Also, new, self made names (names created out of nowhere) always goes through qualification.





What comes to Lili's marriage certificate, I don't think she didn't even need to fill all the names. The certificate applies only in the States and she's not citizen there. Missing name or two wouldn't change a thing, so it might not be required from foreign people.

DJ_Greg
11-09-2006, 07:22 PM
Not an option. Killing is illegal here.

And such option shouldn't be spouse's choice anyways. He/she surely does not have the medical knowledge to decide if it's ok to let someone go. And even if he/she had the required knowledge, he/she wouldn't be in condition to do the choice.

It's doctor's choice if anyones.

Again, a perfectly fine position to hold, but it's not the law. In certain situations it is not the doctor's choice (DNR, for example), regardless of whether you or I or anyone else thinks it should be.

(Also, you assume I meant "letting someone go." My argument also applies to "keeping someone alive." DPA for health care can come into play in both cases).

Regardless, we're getting off the issue. My point is simply that marriage carries legal rights that affect one's life in the real world. It isn't simply a piece of paper. It isn't simply about "commitment." It is a legally binding agreement, recognized by the state and the society as legitimate and worthy of certain rights and obligations.

RMJ
11-09-2006, 08:34 PM
Yea, really good reason to get married, you get to decide someone else life. Shows some real love when I have power to plug off your life ! :blink:

( tho, doesn't apply here... )

DJ_Greg
11-09-2006, 10:33 PM
Yea, really good reason to get married, you get to decide someone else life. Shows some real love when I have power to plug off your life ! :blink:

( tho, doesn't apply here... )

Haha, didn't say it was a reason to get married...

Ben
11-10-2006, 01:32 AM
Haha, didn't say it was a reason to get married...
Well, actually I think it is if you live in the US. Not just the healthcare, but the other benefits that come with marriage like better tax and insurance rates. If you're that seriously committed, there's no reason not to get married: all it takes is 5 minutes with a judge at a registrar. A big ceremony is optional, and just for fun (having attended a few weddings recently, including my bro's, I've concluded that really they're just an excuse to party!).

Anyway, in terms of names I don't think there are many laws here, since I know one of my aunt's legal name was "Baby", because here Parents couldn't think of anything else to put on the certificate, and never bothered to officially change it. :)

HibyPrime
11-10-2006, 02:54 AM
If you are getting married only because of legal reasons then there is something @#%&ing wrong with your relationship.

I haven't seen any compelling reasons here that really make a difference if you are married or not (legal reasons, I mean). Especially not the one about pulling the plug - can you imagine being asked to make a decision on wether or not to kill your spouce, AND be expected to seriously consider it? I would hate to ever be in that position..

atra201
11-10-2006, 07:52 AM
in my opinion if three reliable and trustworthy doctors say there is no hope i'll pull the plug. It's better to die than to be hanging on between life and death.

Ben
11-10-2006, 08:42 AM
If you are getting married only because of legal reasons then there is something @#%&ing wrong with your relationship.
I didn't say that, Hilby. They're reasons not not to get married (excuse the double negative). Or, as I said, there are no reasons not to marry if you're seriously committed anyway. They're no downsides (if you're worried about divorce, sign a pre-nup), but there are benefits.

HibyPrime
11-10-2006, 11:50 AM
I didn't say that, Hilby. They're reasons not not to get married (excuse the double negative). Or, as I said, there are no reasons not to marry if you're seriously committed anyway. They're no downsides (if you're worried about divorce, sign a pre-nup), but there are benefits.

There is a huge downside, a very very very large one for some people.

You are conforming to society.

Ben
11-10-2006, 12:11 PM
There is a huge downside, a very very very large one for some people.

You are conforming to society.
And if you allow that to be the reason, then your the biggest conformist of all. :)

HibyPrime
11-10-2006, 12:44 PM
And if you allow that to be the reason, then your the biggest conformist of all. :)

There is a difference between a non-conformist and someone who does not conform to society. I'm talking about someone who does not want to conform to society.

Ben
11-10-2006, 12:59 PM
Yeah, but they still aren't really thinking for themselves, because they have that one over-arching idea for everything. Practically speaking,it's a reason against marriage they've invented for themselves, not something inherent in it.

HibyPrime
11-10-2006, 01:10 PM
If they have made a truthfully neutral idea a reason for them to never get married, then are they not thinking for themselves?

bt_bird_90
11-10-2006, 01:11 PM
There is a difference between a non-conformist and someone who does not conform to society. I'm talking about someone who does not want to conform to society.
http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/5466/1156904142344xg5ey2.jpg

HibyPrime
11-10-2006, 01:15 PM
http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/5466/1156904142344xg5ey2.jpg

Lol... He is just conforming in his attempt at non-conformity! Get a segway or something..

let me update my recent statement to cater to the image:

There is a difference between non-conformists, someone who does not conform to society, and emo people. I'm talking about someone who does not want to conform to society.

Ben
11-10-2006, 01:34 PM
If they have made a truthfully neutral idea a reason for them to never get married, then are they not thinking for themselves?
Well it depends if they specifically considered marriage when deciding not to conform (though if so, what could the reasoning be?), or if they just thought for themselves the one time and then never consider things as they come up again. In other words, not wanting to conform to society is too broad of reason, imo. You could use it (and granted, people do) as an excuse not to do a lot of very sensible things.

RMJ
11-10-2006, 05:29 PM
alrighty ! Le'ts marry then!

I still see no reason for it but heck.. let's do it !

If it can be done online... I don't wanna walk to registrar for it... so much trouble.

Ben
11-10-2006, 05:54 PM
Heh, I see your all not getting the significance of these legal rights. But they do really effect your everyday life. At least in the US. I don't know about elsewhere, but given that here marriage comes with well over a thousand (literally) legal benefits, I can't imagine there are none in other countries.

Obviously, these practical benefits aren't reason alone to marry. But if you are already emotionally committed, they are something any responsible person will appreciate. Especially if you ever plan on raising a family, I think turning then down is selfish and irresponsible.

Here's just one example. Everyone in my family wears glasses. My father gets eye-care insurance through his employment. If he and my mother weren't married, that insurance wouldn't cover all of us. But because they are, we all get free yearly eye exams and glasses.

RMJ
11-10-2006, 07:55 PM
eye care insurance :blink: i want one too !

RMJ
11-10-2006, 07:58 PM
ther's some legal thinmgs that it brings but they aren't tha important anyways. Most you can cover with testament.

Here I mean. America is other thing gsince you got weird laws there !

DJ_Greg
11-11-2006, 02:14 AM
If you are getting married only because of legal reasons then there is something @#%&ing wrong with your relationship.

I haven't seen any compelling reasons here that really make a difference if you are married or not (legal reasons, I mean). Especially not the one about pulling the plug - can you imagine being asked to make a decision on wether or not to kill your spouce, AND be expected to seriously consider it? I would hate to ever be in that position..

Nobody said that. I can't speak for Snatcher, but I was responding to the comment that "marriage is just a piece of paper." The fact is that it's not. Listing some of the legal rights and obligations that go along with marriage (as I did) is not saying anything about the reasons why people get married. Those are two different statements.

Since you brought it up: rights such as medical decisions for spouses are not typically a reason to get married. They are characteristics of marriage, showing that it is not simply "a piece of paper."

And once again, you and RMJ assume I only meant "pulling the plug." There are various medical problems in which a person cannot communicate, not just PVS (persistent vegetative state). In those cases, the spouse acts as an advocate on that person's behalf.

But these things have nothing to do with why people choose to get married. I didn't say anything about that. I was addressing the statement about marriage's significance (or it's lack of significance...whatever).

DJ_Greg
11-11-2006, 02:20 AM
There is a huge downside, a very very very large one for some people.

You are conforming to society.

:rolleyes:

Guess what: Do you speak a language? Do you wear clothes? Do you walk? Do you eat with a fork? Do you use the Internet? Do you brush your teeth? Do you stop at red lights and go when they turn green? Do you face forward in an elevator, or look slightly upward at the lighted numbers? Do you maintain a certain distance from other people when talking to them? Do you shake someone's hand when they extend it to you?

You "conform to society" in nearly EVERYTHING you do. You live in a society, and the vast majority of your behavior MUST conform to its norms. If you don't, you don't have much chance of survival. To be human is to be a part of society. It's really as simple as that.

neoteny
11-11-2006, 04:08 AM
like jack dining with first class passengers

HEAR HEAR!!!

neoteny
11-11-2006, 05:06 AM
i think i might have had a better chance of a long term relationship if i hadn't gone and ruined things. come to think of it...we were married for a good 4 years before we were married. the average marriage in the US is about 5 years. last time i read it. mine lasted seven months. but that shouldn't suggest that my wifes a crazy, just really misunderstood...alot actually. it was my fault. i miss her, but im glad we're not together anymore. anyway.. point being: word to the wise...dont ever get pressured to get married (knock on wood). find your soul mate.
i hope Alizee has a long lasting happy commitment with Jay.

and dont get married so young! at least wait til youre in your late 20s. thats how i see it now.

drink up....

RMJ
11-11-2006, 11:59 AM
And once again, you and RMJ assume I only meant "pulling the plug." There are various medical problems in which a person cannot communicate, not just PVS (persistent vegetative state). In those cases, the spouse acts as an advocate on that person's behalf.
Same thing. Without medical knowledge it's not that spouses call to do such decisions. If anyone is needed to do those, it's the doctors who are aware of the situation. They are capable of objective thinking and can base their opinion on medical knowledge.


( lol... looks like my texts last night wasn't totally smooth... :blink: )

DJ_Greg
11-11-2006, 12:18 PM
Same thing. Without medical knowledge it's not that spouses call to do such decisions. If anyone is needed to do those, it's the doctors who are aware of the situation. They are capable of objective thinking and can base their opinion on medical knowledge.

I don't know about Finland, but in the U.S. it IS the spouse's call, if the patient cannot communicate for himself/herself. That's the law here.

Doctors aren't machines. If they were as infallible as you claim, there would be no need for ethical reviews. Do I need to recite the long and tragic list of human rights violations by medical practitioners to convince you that your statement above is a bit too uncritical of doctors? They are people; they have ambitions and emotions and personality quirks. They don't deserve your blind faith any more some other person.

Unless, of course, your doctor is Alizée. :)

DJ_Greg
11-11-2006, 12:20 PM
i think i might have had a better chance of a long term relationship if i hadn't gone and ruined things. come to think of it...we were married for a good 4 years before we were married. the average marriage in the US is about 5 years. last time i read it. mine lasted seven months. but that shouldn't suggest that my wifes a crazy, just really misunderstood...alot actually. it was my fault. i miss her, but im glad we're not together anymore. anyway.. point being: word to the wise...dont ever get pressured to get married (knock on wood). find your soul mate.
i hope Alizee has a long lasting happy commitment with Jay.

and dont get married so young! at least wait til youre in your late 20s. thats how i see it now.

drink up....

Listen to Jon Auer, my friend. Songs from the Year of our Demise. He knows how you feel.

Everyone else should listen to that album, too. It's pure indie pop goodness.

RMJ
11-11-2006, 12:40 PM
I don't know about Finland, but in the U.S. it IS the spouse's call, if the patient cannot communicate for himself/herself. That's the law here.
But it should not be. You or I or most of the people here and everywhere are not capable of making such decisions.



Doctors aren't machines. If they were as infallible as you claim, there would be no need for ethical reviews. Do I need to recite the long and tragic list of human rights violations by medical practitioners to convince you that your statement above is a bit too uncritical of doctors? They are people; they have ambitions and emotions and personality quirks. They don't deserve your blind faith any more some other person.
Of course they aren't machines. But they have greatly more knowledge of these things. And should be capable of doing their decisions without your help, or they have chosen wrong career, or haven't been educated enough.



Unless, of course, your doctor is Alizée. :)

If she'd be my doctor, I'd be sick all the time just to see her. :p

Twitch
11-11-2006, 01:23 PM
For the record I wasn't denying the benefits of marriage (legal, taxes, medical, whatever) with my it's just a piece of paper comment, I was just commenting that because of common law marriages, at least in most Canadian Provinces (Québec, because of traditionally strong influence on government from the church, has never recognized them as a marriage, but call them de facto unions) you can legally receive the same benefits without the need or expense of a marriage license and a ceremony with a judge/priest. So if you live together as a married couple would for a year in a conjugal relationship, you are automatically entitled to the benefits of marriage under federal law, but each province has little variations at the provincial level. And at the federal level these laws include same sex couples.

Ben
11-11-2006, 06:26 PM
There is sometimes common law marriage here too, but it gets complicated and varies from state to state.

But it should not be. You or I or most of the people here and everywhere are not capable of making such decisions
Often when it becomes a question of ethics, though, doctors won't have a particular stance on what should be done. They can tell you the facts, but that doesn't always spell out the exact course of action. I don't know about Finland, but here a doctor is not your dictator. He tells you what options you have, and the pros and cons of each, and then its up to you to decide what to do.

This is especially important in cases of mental illness, another instance where this law comes into play. Treatment for these can often be as bad as the disease itself, and deciding what to do is not a question of right or wrong, but a question of lifestyle choice. If the person is too ill to decide for themselves, someone needs to be there who can legally speak for them.

HibyPrime
11-11-2006, 07:02 PM
:rolleyes:

Guess what: Do you speak a language? Do you wear clothes? Do you walk? Do you eat with a fork? Do you use the Internet? Do you brush your teeth? Do you stop at red lights and go when they turn green? Do you face forward in an elevator, or look slightly upward at the lighted numbers? Do you maintain a certain distance from other people when talking to them? Do you shake someone's hand when they extend it to you?

You "conform to society" in nearly EVERYTHING you do. You live in a society, and the vast majority of your behavior MUST conform to its norms. If you don't, you don't have much chance of survival. To be human is to be a part of society. It's really as simple as that.

I'm not a non-conformist, so I'm not too sure why you are telling me this.

Have you ever spoken to a non-conformist? They do not understand common sence, they don't care if their reasons are illogical, they just do it anyway. I'm not talking about emo people, emo people are just teenagers with a heavy case of angst and decide to label themselves as something.

RMJ
11-11-2006, 07:28 PM
Often when it becomes a question of ethics, though, doctors won't have a particular stance on what should be done. They can tell you the facts, but that doesn't always spell out the exact course of action. I don't know about Finland, but here a doctor is not your dictator. He tells you what options you have, and the pros and cons of each, and then its up to you to decide what to do.
Not a dictator but person who you can rely your life on when you are not able to do the choices yourself. They has the most knowledge of the situation so they are the best to choose what to do.



This is especially important in cases of mental illness, another instance where this law comes into play. Treatment for these can often be as bad as the disease itself, and deciding what to do is not a question of right or wrong, but a question of lifestyle choice. If the person is too ill to decide for themselves, someone needs to be there who can legally speak for them.
Legally, here, anyone close to you can do that. If you are married (or officially couple without actually marrying) then it's your spouse, if you aren't then any close relative (mom, dad, child (above 18 of course), or basically anyone close blood relative), or if you don't have any of those then the doctors and social care or whatever does the choices.

So there always someone to choose anyways.

Ben
11-11-2006, 07:44 PM
They has the most knowledge of the situation so they are the best to choose what to do.
When it comes to medicine, yes, but not ethics.

Legally, here, anyone close to you can do that. If you are married (or officially couple without actually marrying) then it's your spouse, if you aren't then any close relative (mom, dad, child (above 18 of course), or basically anyone close blood relative), or if you don't have any of those then the doctors and social care or whatever does the choices.

So there always someone to choose anyways.
Yeah, same here. But as you say, marriage changes who that person is. So it is pretty significant. It's important for establishing your own life. For example, now that my brother is married, his wife is the first person he will rely on and visa versa. No longer my parents. Since he's living far from home, it's important to have that close safety net. Especially once they have children. I think it's a big step in growing up. You can say you'll behave the same without the piece of paper, but then if anything serious comes up, suddenly that wont be recognized as legitimate anymore.

HibyPrime
11-11-2006, 07:57 PM
Not a dictator but person who you can rely your life on when you are not able to do the choices yourself. They has the most knowledge of the situation so they are the best to choose what to do.

You have to remember that there are many, many different races, cultures and religions in the US. Each one has a different idea about what should be done in certain circumstances.

Keeping the person alive no matter what the consequences is not the first priority of many cultures and religions.

DJ_Greg
11-12-2006, 12:49 AM
I'm not a non-conformist, so I'm not too sure why you are telling me this.

Have you ever spoken to a non-conformist? They do not understand common sence, they don't care if their reasons are illogical, they just do it anyway. I'm not talking about emo people, emo people are just teenagers with a heavy case of angst and decide to label themselves as something.

I'm trying to tell you that "non-conformists" don't exist. Or, if they do, you don't see them, because they've basically dropped out of civilization. You HAVE to conform if you want to exist in society. There are other words I might use to describe the people you're talking about...I personally wouldn't use "non-conformist," though.

Ben
11-12-2006, 01:16 AM
You have to remember that there are many, many different races, cultures and religions in the US. Each one has a different idea about what should be done in certain circumstances.

Keeping the person alive no matter what the consequences is not the first priority of many cultures and religions.
That's a good point. Heck, some people do things that are downright unhealthy for religion, culture, or other belief. And within reason, we have to respect those decisions for them and their family (though we should of course educate them about the consequences).

DJ_Greg
11-12-2006, 01:51 PM
You have to remember that there are many, many different races, cultures and religions in the US. Each one has a different idea about what should be done in certain circumstances.

Keeping the person alive no matter what the consequences is not the first priority of many cultures and religions.

There's a great book, written by Anne Fadiman (if I remember correctly), called The Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down, about a Hmong girl with epileptic seizures and the clash between her family, community, and Western medicine. It does a good job of illustrating what you're saying here.

FanDeAliFee
12-24-2009, 05:03 PM
Permit me to bring the discussion back from various tangents, to the matter of surnames. The frequency and geography of both the names Jacotey and Chatelain are examined near the top of the page here: http://bellsouthpwp.net/d/o/docdtv/Alizee/2009Dec/

In the matter of names, what was finally decided? Does Alizée in fact have (albeit not use) a couple of middle names or not? If so, what are they?

AlizéeDuSiècle
01-02-2010, 03:58 PM
its like mariah carey she still uses carey though her last name is cannon..

FanDeAliFee
02-06-2010, 11:35 AM
Many subscribed to this thread may enjoy reading the fascinating surprises research has uncovered in Jacotey/Jacotet genealogy (http://alizeeamerica.com/forums/showthread.php?p=150366).

ALS
02-06-2010, 12:01 PM
I did a quick search and found at least one Jacotey in the U.S.

DENISSE JACOTEY Arlington TX

FanDeAliFee
02-07-2010, 07:34 AM
I did a quick search and found at least one Jacotey in the U.S.

DENISSE JACOTEY Arlington TX

There is a Denisse Jacotey (http://www.facebook.com/people/Denisse-Jacotey/519892592) account at Facebook, and she even lists among her music favorites the Facebook account called Alizée (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Alizee/14762050573). I am not surprised by the many Spanish links as I ran across Jacoteys in Latin America when studying the genealogy of the name.

Would you mind saying what resource you used to find D J so we can add it to our bag of tricks? With authentication, I'll certainly credit you and correct the null results for current Jacoteys in the USA. Thanks for your keen interest!

P.S. Wink pulls up a bunch of alleged US Jacoteys, including your find Denisse in Arlington, Jean-Loup in San Diego, LOL, and even a Johhan (extra "h" compared to A's little brother) in LA.

ALS
02-07-2010, 08:00 AM
Hear you go the phonebook

Whitepages (http://www.whitepages.com/)

Deepwaters
02-07-2010, 08:28 AM
Docdtv, I'm curious -- have you found any Jacoteys in the Paris area other than Her Grace?

FanDeAliFee
02-07-2010, 09:45 AM
Docdtv, I'm curious -- have you found any Jacoteys in the Paris area other than Her Grace?

I think I bumped into (at least homophones for) Jacotey in historic Paris, but I never really concentrated on contemporary records. As Wink did such a good job digging up USA folks when so many other good tools failed, one can give it a try for Paris France (http://wink.com/people/nm/Jacotey/l/Paris%2C%20France/). It doesn't seem to find much new.

Also, I would not necessarily believe the veracity of a listing using any celebrity name. Some people have a sense of humor, e.g. Jean-Loup as a pun for Jean-Luc previously in this thread.

Melle Katherine
01-13-2013, 07:06 AM
J is like J in the name "Jacques".