I think I've figured it out

[HibyPrime]

how to emulate the french rolling of the r's!!

I said something today without clearing my throat, and it sounded like a french person said it. The secret is to leave your mouth and throat full of saliva when you speak.

Try it!

(sorry if this insults anyone, but it really seems to work)

[Twitch]

Hmm interesting approach, but ya the French R is guttural meaning it is pronounced in the throat. I know that description is as useless as a bucket with a hole in it for carrying water, but keep playing around with your throat and you will learn to do it without the saliva. Once you get it all of a sudden your French sounds tons better.:) Personally I am not looking forward to when it comes time for me to perfect the Spanish trilled R.:(

[Rocket]

I agree with HibyPrime, a good mouthful of saliva makes much rounder tones.

[atra201]

yuk
yuk
yuk

[rcs]

Wouldn't the French think that we're being slobs when we roll the R with spit flying everywhere? :D And I thought the Spanish R was tough. :rolleyes:

[aFrenchie]

The secret is to leave your mouth and throat full of saliva when you speak.
You're gonna spit everywhere like rcs said :D. Believe me, you can do the R with all your saliva dried :p
And it's not rolled in French. Russians do that (and others I don't remember)

[Spartan500]

for me the spanish r is easy but the french one gives me trouble

[HibyPrime]

You're gonna spit everywhere like rcs said :D. Believe me, you can do the R with all your saliva dried :p
And it's not rolled in French. Russians do that (and others I don't remember)

Everyone needs a good showerin' once in awhile

I don't know what to call the french r's other than a roll, but yeah, it's not really a roll..

[aFrenchie]

I don't know what to call the french r's other than a roll, but yeah, it's not really a roll..
Here's a lesson. Make sure you don't spit everywhere :D :
http://french.about.com/cs/pronunciation/ht/r.htm

Other (same site):
http://french.about.com/library/pronunciation/bl-pronunciation-r.htm
In that page, she confirms the second most difficult French sound is the "U"

[HibyPrime]

hmm.. If your mouth is full of water (or saliva, eww), you are forced to talk out of your throat rather than your mouth, almost like gargling. I think this is why I end up being able to pronounce the R without clearing my throat.

Just image having a mouthful of water, tilt your head back, and then try to emulate the french R. You would end up with water all over yourself, but the sound would be right (well, almost anyway).

Of course it's not a perfect sound, and I would probably sound like an idiot to you if I recorded it :P

[Matrix]

Throatiness R.. how is a french child taught to say it? I'm sure they are in school and the teacher is grabbing her throat saying, down here.. .say the R down here in the throat

Here's an idea.. someone change how it sounds. Take a vote in France and get it changed. Just because somebody got hit in the neck with a rock two thousand years ago and pronounced it that way doesn't mean the entire nation of France has to

Has France ever discussed that?

[RadioactiveMan]

They don't have to be taught it. They just learn it the same way that people learn English- they hear it and absorb it. It's perfectly easy and natural for them to pronounce things with that R sound so they wouldn't change it.

[garçoncanadien]

Young kids can absorb just about every phoneme. As we get older, lack of use of certain phonemes simply makes it hard for us adults to learn them again. That's why young kids learn pronounciation so fast. Case in point - most Japanese natives have a hard time pronouncing the English l.

[Twitch]

So true, in my French emersion program I didn't have an English class until grade 5, and then it was only an English class, Math and Phys Ed, everything else was still in French until grade ten when we only had to take French, but I took some history and other classes in French because the teachers were a lot more interesting. So because I learned my alphabet, numbers and all that in French, learning them in English only by the simple fact that I grew up in an English family, I guess it was a lot easier for me to learn speak French.

[aditya8617]

I still can't speak it. Even your technique doesn't seem to be working hibby. But atleast now I can read the words and understand a little bit.

[maareek]

I don't even remember how I learned to pronounce it. Apparently my French teacher was better than I thought because when I started going over my French just recently I went to pronounce a few words and surprised myself that I knew how to pronounce the r. I never had much of a problem with it, though, since I often used my throat to make weird/unusual noises as a child. I have more trouble with sounds that require the use of the tongue/mouth than the throat.

And to matrix: learning a pronounciation for a small child is nothing. They hear and they do, there's no unusual or strange it just is. That's why they call it the "formative years", you absorb everything like a sponge. And that's where you need to get back to to learn new languages/new ways of doing things. The reason most people find it harder to learn new things as they get older is not really that they can't it's that they really don't want to, even if it's only on a subconscious level because they've done it one way for so long.

[Rocket]

What? I speak perfect spanish. Just listen to me roll my 'r's. RRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRR I rrrrrrrrrrest my case. - Peggy Hill (King of the Hill)

[RadioactiveMan]

http://wellingtonguelph.ca/WGPortal/uploadfiles/3wc5ib454shvx445ye2vgf2yRollUpTheRim.jpg

[HibyPrime]

http://wellingtonguelph.ca/WGPortal/uploadfiles/3wc5ib454shvx445ye2vgf2yRollUpTheRim.jpg

Those things are fun, I like watching people actually try to open them with their fingers and not their teeth...

[RadioactiveMan]

During a rugby tournament last year I went to a Tim Hortons with a friend of mine and his family. His family moved to Canada from South Africa about a year before that. My friend's father tried to play the game but couldn't roll up the rim. He asked me for help and I felt extremely proud and patriotic when I taught him. Happiest day of my life! (give or take)

[HibyPrime]

I felt extremely proud and patriotic when I taught him.

You should, you could either have taught him about tims, or showed him some snow. Good choice!

Edit: Just noticed you live in BC, so you could have shown him some rain instead of snow..

Edit2: hes from south africa, so I'm sure hes sick of rain. Yet another reason you chose well!

[Twitch]

Too bad Tims is American owned (same company that owns Wendy's), damn free trade.:mad:
But I'm curious if anybody but Canadians understand how rolling R's got us talking about coffee?
(RRRRRRRolllll up the RRRRRRim to win:D )

[RadioactiveMan]

It doesn't rain a lot where I am. It rains like hell on the coast but I'm in the interior.

I'm liking all of the Canadian content that has flooded the boards lately. :cool:

[NANAKI]

I can do it without the saliva but I am also part French so I don't know

[atra201]

i don't think it's got to do with the saliva
it's just an accent

[Cooney]

In that page, she confirms the second most difficult French sound is the "U"

Hehe, personally I think the hardest sound for me has got to be that damnable triphthong uei, like in the verb "cueillir." That's got to be at least 10 times worse than the "ai" diphthong found in the word détail (which, the few times I've heard her full name spoken, seems similar to the sound used in the last syllable of "Jacotey"), which drove me crazy for a while itself. I still have to think about what I'm doing pretty hard to get that triphthong in the right spot - the U, and most of the R's, I have down now (I think).

[aFrenchie]

Hehe, personally I think the hardest sound for me has got to be that damnable triphthong uei, like in the verb "cueillir."
It's only a diphthong. Try cueillir (or only "oeil") in this link: http://www.research.att.com/~ttsweb/tts/demo.php#top
(choose Juliette..French, it's the most accurate)

That's got to be at least 10 times worse than the "ai" diphthong found in the word détail (which, the few times I've heard her full name spoken, seems similar to the sound used in the last syllable of "Jacotey")
No, there's no diphthong in Jacotey! I know English-speaking people will do that (like in Alizée). And "-tey" is far from sounding like "-tail" in détail. Try both in the link above too. "-tey" is like English "get" without the ending "t". "-ail" is like "I".

[atra201]

thanks aFrenchie for this and special thanks for the site.

and if anyone wnts my advise just call her lili

[bt_bird_90]

thanks aFrenchie for this and special thanks for the site.

and if anyone wnts my advise just call her lili
I will never call her Lili on the forums, that's a name reserved for her close friends. As much as I want her to, she doesn't know me. I can only hope someday I can be part of that special group.

[atra201]

As much as I want her to, she doesn't know me. I can only hope someday I can be part of that special group.

well if you do become part of that special group,
don't forget to introduce me. Please

[Cooney]

It's only a diphthong. Try cueillir (or only "oeil") in this link: http://www.research.att.com/~ttsweb/tts/demo.php#top
(choose Juliette..French, it's the most accurate)

Hmm, thanks for the link. I could swear I keep hearing it as a triphthong. Oh well, good news for me that it's not! Much easier for me to pronounce that way.


No, there's no diphthong in Jacotey! I know English-speaking people will do that (like in Alizée). And "-tey" is far from sounding like "-tail" in détail. Try both in the link above too. "-tey" is like English "get" without the ending "t". "-ail" is like "I".

Thank goodness! Again, I was going by how I thought I'd heard it pronounced. Problem is, I've only heard it like twice, and never spoken by her herself (is there any clip where she says her last name?). The way you are saying to pronounce it is how I had originally, before I ran across things I thought sounded different. I'll be happy to switch back!

"Get" is a good word for reference there - it's actually the american word used for teaching that sound in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA) for theatre - it's the third vowel sound from the front (order front to back is We Will Get Mad Fast Who Would Obey All Honest Fathers Stir Surprise Cup). I don't suppose you study IPA, do you?