Some women the only way they could be sexy is dress like a slut or take their cloths off for some photo shoot. A few years ago I got in to TCM and was watching a lot of the old black and white movies from the late thirties through the forties. I was floored on how absolutely beautiful and sexy the women of that era were. The one movie that jumps out was Laura with Gene Tierney. My god that woman was so incredibly beautiful and sexy in that movie. Another was the Big Sleep with Humphery Bogart and Lauren Bacall. Lauren again was as hot as they come in that movie. Back then they sure were not dressing mini skirts with their butt cheeks hanging out, Daisy Dukes or tube tops.

Like the first time I saw Alizée in La Isla Bonita she was one of the sexiest women I had ever seen.

I can't agree more with Corsaire and Als points and point of view. Besides exploiting ones body by getting naked is the cheapest thrill and form of flattery available. Leaving nothing to the imagination is no fun at all and just a cheap stunt regardless of the motives. Alizee understood this at 15 and refuses to be so classless. She is a beautiful human being and when I was a young man I might have desired to see her naked, but even then I would have lost respect for her. I view her as multi-dimensional and her sensuality is just a part. I also view her as a daughter. Although a father is aware of the beauty of their children, they hopefully don't get sexuallly excited by this and takes up the least of their attention. If the physical aspect is your bag, then there are many other people to ogle over that are just as attractive physically as Alizee and are totally naked.

She's nothing compared to Louise Brooks or Sophie Marceau
https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.n...95296870_n.jpg

I've seen a few of those.. many of those women are on this video.

Check around the 1:39 - 1:47 minute mark for Gene Tierney. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXkblbJqwn0

Well only my dreams, or in my bed. :D

I'll raise you one Audrey Hepburn. :p

http://sparklingmagazine.files.wordp...ey-hepburn.jpg

Just to get a little off track and to talk about Audrey Hepburn. A lot of you know I'm a ww1 and 2 history buff. I recently read that Audrey grew up in war time Belgium. During operation Market Garden ( A bridge too far), the Belgium government in exile called for a general strike by the railroad workers so hopefully the Germans couldn't get supplies to their forces who were fighting against the allies who were trying to capture the bridge at Arnhem. This was in the fall of 1944.

Well the operation failed and in retaliation for the strike, the German army shut off all shipments of food and water and fuel by railroad. A lot of people in Belgium starved that winter. Audrey's family had to grind up tulip bulbs to make flower. Years later, she blamed her eating disorders on what happened during that time. It's interesting reading about that phase of her life. It probably played an important role into her deleloping into the great person she was.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audrey_Hepburn

Thanks for the link Scruffy, what I find most interesting is that the movie from which she discovered Mel Ferrer by ( who she later married ) was actually a movie called "Lili"...... I dunno but it's like two worlds colliding. :wub:

Those women are very beautiful and classy, but I wouldn't call that sexy or provocative. I like all ranges of personalities, but I feel a certain kinship with MF.

I'm with Un-rêve on this one!! :D

Ok but seriously, I don't think I would like to see her naked in a simple music video. Maaaaaaaybe in a film, if it were an important and meaningful part of the story. But even then, I think I'd prefer it if she kept her clothes on.
If she were to reveal herself like that, I'd prefer it if was for my eyes only :D:o:p

You guys are making my inner feminist twitch. What bothers me is that you guys wouldn't mind seeing her naked on YOUR terms.

wel, tbh those terms are quite modest and well wishing

They get naked on their terms, so how is that any different than anyone elses terms? Besides despite what feminists espouse, men and women are wired different and the sexes will never be able to completely understand the other on any level.

Even if you put that way, they are after all, OUR terms yes? Why would we not want it that way?

Also, you're reacting like a kid, going "eww eww eww eww." It's as if you think we're going to declare war on Alizée if she doesn't go along with what we say. At the end of the day she always does what SHE wants, and while we may complain, what difference will it really make? Whatever she does, she may lose a few fans but she'll also gain new ones. Take me for example. A lot of people didn't like Psych so they chips and dipped. Me, I came along long after Psych but a year before UEDS. Psych became my favorite album, and I've stuck around. So if she were to go butt nekkid on a simple music video (such as the one lapinschous posted) I wouldn't be all too pleased, but I wouldn't leave. Even if I left, there are other people who like that sort of thing. Mat said it wouldn't bother him, a few posts ago. In my own post, I said the only way I'd wanna see her like that would be if it were just me and her (not through a keyhole ...Lili4ever :p) But because that kind of thing is highly unlikely, as well as something I'm not actively striving towards, I hope that she only undresses at home, for a shower, for her partner, whatever.

:cool:

Edit -
Another thing I'd like to add, if I had been in line with Scruffy, Jake and Ray, I would probably have been kinda terrified, so it it were just me and Alizée I don't know what I'd do. So maybe, even then I would prefer a nice chat, rather than have a heart attack at 21 xD

…because if she did decide to go nude for a photoshoot or something, that would make her a worse person? It would decrease her value in some way?

Postin' this link because I agree with pretty much everything this lady has to say : http://jezebel.com/5966651/hey-girls...ty-is-bullshit

« The problem is the implication that there's a "right" way to be a woman, and that men—anonymous, strange men on the internet, no less—have some say in what that "right" way looks like. And I'm very sorry, "Guys," but my only "womanly duty" is to myself. »

A very important difference. You should have no cause to complain when she does what she wants to do. This isn't just about Alizée doing something you don't like, it's about many people who carry this misogynistic and oppressive attitude that is a taint on society. If a woman showing off her body lessens her value in your mind, you need to change. It shouldn't bother you if a woman wants to dress in very revealing clothing or be nude in a movie or a magazine or anywhere else. There's nothing wrong with that. The former president of France and his beautiful wife agree with me.*

*Warning : link leads to a photo of an unclothed woman


I'm not saying that this attitude applies 100% to everyone who's commented on the last couple pages, but it probably applies a little bit to almost everyone. (I probably even lost Euphoria at some point—I know she doesn't like nipples.) It's the little remnants of the past—when society was much more oppressive to women, if you can imagine—that are so embedded in everyone's mind that cause you to look down on someone who would dare show off her body and be proud of her sexuality, rather than dressing like the women on Turner Classic Movies… who, by the way, didn't have much choice in how they dressed…


That may have gone a bit off topic, but I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't hit 'Submit Reply' right now.

No, I agree with you DrSmith. That's the exact point I was trying to make. Nipples don't bother me per se, but women in America don't really go braless, so I was curious if it's common in France. I don't think it's wrong, and I don't think I have any right to tell a woman what to do with her body and what she should/shouldn't show.

I dunno, I shouldn't have said anything. My point was that a man who is attracted to a woman would like to see her nude, and has thought about it. It's not wrong, it's nature. I was just poking fun, but the replies bothered me.

Well since you quoted my post specifically I take it that you are really only talking to me. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think I ever said that it would "make her a worse person, or that it would decrease her value in some way"... in any way shape or form. I just said I'd prefer she keep her clothes on.

I'm a horrible example giver :o but here goes: Say you are a friend of mine from school, and you come to my house on my birthday, wearing a shirt that says "Michael Jackson is gay." (*In the sense where you use the word "gay" offensively, not meaning homosexual. Women he worked with can attest to his preferences :D) Needless to say, I wouldn't like that. I wouldn't make judgements about your value as a person either. I would say that there are perhaps other sitiuations where I'd be (more or less) ok with you wearing that, like if you were a comedian doing an offensive comedy stand up show. I would rather you wear something else, but whatever.

You quoted me again, saying that I need to change if I think a woman's value lessens if she shows off her body. Well that's only true to a point, I can't say that I don't like the way she looks in the JPVA dress. But I think it would be a bit inappropriate if she wore something like that to the funeral she went to recently. All in all, what I'm saying is that there's a time and a place to show off your body. All this started from saying whether or not we'd be ok with her going in the direction of that MF music video. It must work for MF, it does, I'm sure. As for me, nudity in a music video isn't my thing. Lisa Marie Presley was (almost) naked in MJ's You Are Not Alone music video, I don't watch it often. :cool:

I think when combined with the lyrics of the song ('Love is nothing') this video is meant to be ironic, not just meaningless nudity as it may at first appear.

Edit:

Also Mylène and Alizée are two completely different people. I think it is also silly to assume Mylène would've tried to turn Alizée into a carbon copy of herself if they had continued to work together.

Agreed also. It's not like Alizee was her slave, either. I'm sure she enjoyed playing a sexy tease at first, but a lot of women grow out of that.

You didn't say that, which is why I posed it as a question or a suggestion that maybe that's the way you feel and you don't even realise it. Could be something to think about. If you have a strong preference for "modest" attire in women, there may be some misguided reasoning behind it and a very damaging side-effect, i.e. "slut-shaming."

It's okay if you prefer women who keep themselves covered up, it's the condemnation of the opposite that is a problem.

And I wasn't just talking to you. I was responding to fragments of different posts, and maybe taking it to a place that nobody was even discussing. But I think the unwritten law is "you're allowed to go off-topic as long as you acknowledge you are," right? :p

I see what you mean, and yes, it IS something to think about. Hmm, well I wouldn't say it was a strong preference, cause like I said, JPVA dress and also, Tatiana Thumbtzen in MJ's "TWYMMF"* yummeh :o:D But LMP in You Are Not Alone, idk, :dontknow: though she really is attractive.

*You'll see what I mean in the first five seconds :p

I suppose it is :D

It's ironic that in your quest to show how open minded and evolved you are in not making value judgments, you closed your mind to anyone elses opinions that don't fit into your narrative.-(The world according to Dr. Smith)- A value judgement in and of itself and an oppressive one at that.

Maybe not her slave, but she had an immense authority over Alizée, she was the tutor of her early career , expected her to do whatever she said , closely monitored her performances, interviews, looking out for every little mistake . Lili was under great pressure and her shy personality led her to set aside her critical thinking and do as she was told.

Mylène being a freemason, and knowing the persuasive power of this kind of people, I can perfectly imagine some sort of manipulation that she wanted to escape from , regardless of the cost or the person that would help her doing so. That person turned out to be Jérémy and was the person that would change her forever; made her become more materialistic and superficial on some aspects of her life (while she said she only needed simple things in her early interviews) , made her become more attracted to the "bad boy" side of men (while she said that she just wanted anyone nice with her ) , who made her want to shield herself with tattoos etc.. But deep inside, even with this shell that she built around her , the Alizée of the beginnings remains untouched, just a bit traumatized by the merciless world of fame .

When she started to work with Mylène .
v
http://fond-d-ecran-gratuit.org/photos/alizee.jpg

After the break up
v
http://i48.tinypic.com/zlr8sk.jpg

The relationship with Jérémy
v
http://portfolio.soirmag.lesoir.be/m...serialNumber=2

After the divorce
v
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/j...e-29-mars-.jpg

Commercial failure of UEDS
v
http://media.paperblog.fr/i/283/2836...coute-L-1.jpeg



From the thoughtlessness of the beginnings to maturity, she's been through a lot of hardships and she's changed . But we still love her.

Nice spin. I disagree with those that would pre-judge others and try to tell them how they should behave and live. And you're mad that I disagree with your right to take away other peoples' rights? :)) You judge me for judging you for judging everyone, now I judge you again. This could go on forever.

I haven't closed my mind to the opinion that some people should be able to tell other people how to live their lives. I've heard it, I've thought about it, and I've rejected it. Which is probably more thought than you've done to reach your conclusion that women ought to live by a code that men set for them.

The definition of closed-minded is "stubbornly unreceptive to new ideas." You know what isn't a new idea? Sexism. It's been around forever, but if I want to challenge that then I'm being closed-minded? Pwaha!

http://crossfitlove.com/wp-content/u...ats-up-doc.jpg

Aren't you going a bit overboard here, Docteur?

I believe every single person has the right to reject and dislike whatever they want. No one has demanded that Alizée’s clitoris be excised if she shows her ass. No one has asked that MF be lapidated on the public place or put in prison for her striptease in that video. Docteur, where was it demanded that any woman should be forced to live by any rule set for them? I personally claim the right to dislike and reject anything I want to. And I don’t care for that “but as long as it is what she/he wants to do”, no one should question it. I have a brain and I am capable of judgement based on my values and my preferences and if I want to reject something , that is my prerogative. Alizée can still do what she wants with her body and her life.

I would instantly reject any male singer if he based his act on eating rats, blowing farts into flames or caressing his dick through his leather jeans. Is this because he is a man and I want him to live by my rules? No, it is just because I find this sort of stuff silly and uninteresting. In the case of MF, I don’t value her work because there is nothing of substance she can offer me. She has built a career based on the controversial nature of her work and, well, to me, she has stopped being controversial and innovative a very long time ago. As for her sexy erotic side, I don’t care for it. Too contrived, too obvious, too childish and silly. So, I just reject her act. Not because she is a woman or because I am sexist. Not because she shows some skin, but simply because I find her uninteresting. And on top of this, I claim the right to share my views on this subject, regardless of “what MF wants to do with her life and her body” and regardless of what any of her fans might think. In the case of Alizée, if she starts to show her ass, I will drop her instantly. Not because she is a woman, not because I am sexist, but simply because this is not the reason why I am following her career. I would also seize to be a fan if she started eating rats or setting farts on fire on stage... even if that is “her choice and her body”.

I already admitted that I took this discussion to a level that it wasn't at, and that it's not just about Alizée. I can rant, can't I?

Oh, lots of places. I assure you. And are you telling me that someone's preference for "modest" women is not influenced by an ages-old standard set for them?

No, but it's been implied time and time again. People stating that they would lose all respect for Alizée if she was nude in a video (or because she got tattoos.) Because Alizée represents some kind of "purity" to them, which is a result of patriarchal oppression. That's my point. You don't have to like something, but losing all respect for someone and regarding them as trash is a step too far.

You're not one of the people calling Mylène or Carla Bruni a slut and a whore, so I'm not talking about you.

I don't want to take part of this debate, which I see it as too much serious on such a subject for me. I would just say calling Mylène a slut is bad, specially if you really mean it. She called herself a "harlot" in Libertine. And that was just about teasing and fun. And I like her for that.

I hate the term slut. It means something different to everyone. I thought a slut was someone who slept with everyone. Like the whole school, town, their workplace, etc. Posing nude doesn't make you a slut. It's art, it's been done for thousands of years. Models that pose nude for artists are sluts? Some of you guys are stuck in the Dark Ages.

You can call it spin if you want to, but I was merely pointing out the blatant hypocrisy and assumptions that you know other peoples beliefs or motives. You couldn't possibly arrive at your extreme conclusions with any degree of accuracy from what has been discussed thus far.

My conclusions were based on posts from other threads, not just this one. And like I said, they don't apply 100% to everyone. If what I said doesn't describe you at all, then you have no reason to be defensive. I didn't point my finger at anyone.

I'd just like to point out that calling someone a hypocrite is cheap way to try to undermine their stance when you don't want to admit that they're right. You've not said word one about whether you think I'm right or I'm wrong, you've just nit-picked at my words hoping you could catch me in some technicality. It's pointless. I'm like Corsaire and you're like a rat-eater : you're boring me !

i was thinking. Was MF really a blessing for Alizee or fool's gold ? :13: Yes, MF brought her to the top of the world, but at what price ? Alizee is practically a hostage of image created by MF. Let's say she didn't meet MF. She would not have been Lolita, but Alizée Jacotey and her debut album would have been Psychédélices followed by UEDS ? Or maybe other style albums. I am sure there are plenty of competent managers and producers in France, not just MF. MF set her a very high goals. Anything less than 1 million sold albums was doomed to be a flop. And Lolita image was really great. It was so good, people could not forgive Alizee for dumping it. People say she has no talent and with out MF she would be nothing. But didn't she get some tv time and won some talent show ? There are plenty of females who really have no more talent than Alizee, but with the right producers and management they are at the top of charts. What do, you, think ?

Yeah she would have been a nobody, she would have stopped dancing to become a computer engineer with glasses and gained a lot of bodyfat . :D


No mylène , no singing career, it wouldn't even have crossed her mind to become a singer if her friend didn't accidentally enrolled her in the singing category of graines de star. But okay, let's suppose she released Psych as her first album... it would have been a disaster, no one would have been willing to give the money necessary for the promotion . And since her voice is not that good while singing rock songs , the sales would have been ridiculously low. :(

I agree. It's quite likely that Alizée would have never began a singing career if Mylène hadn't found her. And if she did, we probably wouldn't know about her outside of France because she wouldn't have been so famous, and she wouldn't have done the JEAM dance that made her known throughout the Internet.

I don't understand this, i'm sure the show zée was on didn't have a " win and mylene will manage you " price, why wouldn't lili go with another succusesful producer ( if another one found her ) ? Beside i never heard alizée saying that she specifically wanted MF or she wouldn't sing ...

There's always an alternative you know :13: depends on whoever she ends up with :)

Alizée wanted to perform as a dancer, not a singer. She only sang on Graines de Star because she found out that they only took dancing groups and not solo acts. She probably didn't have big aspirations to be a singer at that time, and if she was approached by some random producer she may well have declined. Mylène is the most famous female singer in France and working with her was an opportunity that would be harder to refuse.

There is that possibility that she would have made it big without Mylène's help, I just think it's unlikely. It would've required a lot of luck.

Yeah "slut" is a horrible word for a women who sleeps with everyone. Well prostitutes have been satisfying men since the dark ages too and if it wasn't for those wonderful women many guys would never have got laid!

Anyway I think regarding those kind of women as "trash" or "sluts" is a great injustice to them.. I mean if anything they deserve praise for what they do.. it can't be easy for them.

My points were directed to you specifically. I have no interest in arguing points of view and I refused to take the bait. I do acknowledge that I agree on one thing and that this conversation has become boring and I will not bore you any further.:fight: