France's music market is tough for French singers.

[Mr Coucou]

Originally Posted by Bamagirl

And then, of course (though I don't want to get political here) there is the issue of the basics of marketplace and production. English-speaking, non-socialist countries have historically enjoyed greater success with their marketing, production and distribution efforts for all kinds of products than smaller countries or countries with more restrictive laws regarding free enterprise. And I believe that would include music and films.

Let's get more specific.

In the 1960's, the British produced a very large amount of rock music, whereas the French produced hardly any at all.

Are you blaming socialism for this??? Are you saying that the French were held back by socialism??? Is that what you're saying???

[CleverCowboy]

True, the French did not produce hardly any rock in the 60's. Neither did they produce jazz or polkas. The countries in those days were nationalistic, and the music was regional. There was no global economy, the Internet didn't exist, and it was not easy to market something globally.

Rock and roll was a product of the US and spread to the UK. There was at least a decade of influence that the UK artists could draw on. It wasn't a big jump because of the common language and of the close friendship between the two countries. France, on the other hand, other than those that might have traveled to the US, had little exposure to rock. The French in the 60's produced a lot of music, for the French audience (France Gall was very popular at the time). They were singing with an orchestra as the band instead of electric guitars.

[Fall]

Originally Posted by Mr Coucou

As I see it, the problem isn't the "French market"--- the problem is the fact that aside from Boudennat, French songwriters aren't the best. I think that French singers are starved for material-- and for some reason this impacts the women much more than the men.

Edit:



I don't think that's true. Compare France with England. Over the course of modern music, British songwriters have cranked out mega-hit after mega-hit--- whereas French songwriters have done nothing of the sort.

Where is the French Beatles?
Where is the French Rolling Stones?
Where is the French Moody Blues?
Where is the French Led Zeppelin?
Where is the French Supertramp?

The list goes on and on...

Has there ever been a world-class French rock band??? Can you name a single one??? Just one???

Aside from Boudennat, French songwriters aren't anywhere near as good as British songwriters.

Do you see what I mean?

Edit:



There is only one possible explanation: French pop music isn't as good as British and American pop music. And that comes down to the songwriting itself and not marketing.

Originally Posted by Mr Coucou

Let's get more specific.

In the 1960's, the British produced a very large amount of rock music, whereas the French produced hardly any at all.

Are you blaming socialism for this??? Are you saying that the French were held back by socialism??? Is that what you're saying???

The problem with your examples is that you're holding up specific cases and asking for parallels, which are near impossible to find. Where is the American Alizée? Don't say Britney Spears, because they are nowhere near alike. Where's the American Shy'm? Where is the American Daft Punk? In the broader French speaking world, where is the American Stromae? Where is the American Celine Dion?

There simply are no accurate comparisons. As CC said, rock music originated in the United States. Black musicians such as Muddy Waters often struggled in the American market, where their work was classified as "race records." Nevertheless, they found a following in Britain partly thanks to the shared language. Their music inspired British and later American rock legends like the Rolling Stones, Eric Clapton, and Jimi Hendrix.

Lastly, you don't need to use so many question marks to make your point.

[Scruffydog777]

This is a complex subject with so many factors involved. As far as has there been any world class French rock bands? I mentioned recently in chat and in some threads in the past when I went to the autograph session, I had a gentleman join me who was from Wyoming (or Wisconsin) and him and his girl friend from the same state had been teaching in France for 2 years and they said young people have a very structured upbringing as far as their education, being told what books, note books, school bags, etc, to bring to school. They are pretty much raised to be followers, not leaders. Where as how many of bands in our country have been formed from rebellious teens? One thing I just read in Wikipedia about the British invasion was "The rebellious tone and image of US rock and roll and blues musicians became very popular with Brithis youth in the late 1950s".

Language too has been mentioned as a factor. Even though French and Spanish too are in my opinion two of the most beautiful languages when used in certain songs, 'maybe' they don't fit as well in rock and pop as English in the majority of songs?

I think you all have heard me mention Les Enfoires many a time. I've found so many songs and voices that I enjoy so much, but when I see a singer I think has a great voice, I'll look up their own songs and I seldom find a song they sing outside of Les Enfoires that I like. Maybe it's their record label steering them in a direction that is not best for them? In Les Enfoires, I think Jean Jaques Goldman over the years has a great ability to match up a singer(s) who are best suited for a song.

I read a few British artists attended a UK art school. Did this play a large part in their success? Mylene Farmer who is the most successful recording artist in France's history, both atteended the Cours Florent in Paris where they studied and started working together. Was that a key to her enormous success?

Yet we have many artists with humble beginings. Do they do well because their stores are often from the heart?

There are so many factors; language, culture, upbringing, record companies.

I find a lot of truth in what Bamagirl had to say about Socialist countries. I think their way of life is more restictive on young artists. Here is a list of the top 8 music markets in the world. The only socialist country comes in at #8 and that's probably due to it's size.

•No. 8: Russia. ...
•No. 7: Australia. ...
•No. 6: Canada. ...
•No. 5: France. ...
•No. 4: Japan. ...
•No. 3: United Kingdom. ...
•No. 2: Germany. ...
•No. 1: United States.


I also agree with Fall, that there was no need to use all the question marks, though that's something I've been guilty of on a few occassions over the years. There's a way to agree and a way to disagree and I don't think it was merited on this occassion.

[Bamagirl]

Great points, Scruffy and Fall. And for the record, I was not trying to start a political debate. Just trying to discuss reasons why music from some countries tends to become more globally widespread and/or popular than music from other countries.

[Mr Coucou]

Sorry about the question marks; looking back at my posts, I can see that it was annoying.

But I still believe I'm right about French music being limited by the French language:

Quite apart from English being the third most widely spoken native language in the world, it also has some very handy features that make it a joy to use in writing music. When you listen to some of the Eurovision entries that are sung in, say, Spanish or the language of one of the eastern European countries, you can almost visualize the musical composer writing in lots of eighth and sixteenth (very short) notes just to keep up with the staccato words and uncomfortable grammar.

By comparison with many other languages, for songwriting English is a breeze. Lots of opportunities for rhyming lyrics, nice short words that mean a lot so you can relax the musical pace (or not) as you please, pronunciation that doesn’t require you to contort your mouth and tongue so your face looks like a tumble dryer at work, plus plenty of words ending in convenient vowel sounds that are easily “singable"...

https://howtowritebetter.net/why-eng...uage-of-music/

... since English is a not a tonal language and is quite forgiving when it comes to shifting of stress and prosody (arguably one of the reasons it is also very popular around the world), it's far easier to write lyrics in than, say French, with its very precise vowels and stress on every first syllable, or Swedish with its information-bearing double stresses (the latter being the reason it sounds sing-songy to non-speakers).

https://www.quora.com/Why-do-non-Eng...-own-languages


These are the sort of things that I'm talking about.

I'm not trying to put down the French language; I'm fascinated by French. I'm just trying to understand what is happening. This thread is about why French singers have such a tough time--- my opinion is that French songwriters are limited by the French language itself--- and that as a result French singers are essentially starved for material.

[CleverCowboy]

Originally Posted by Mr Coucou

I'm not trying to put down the French language; I'm fascinated by French. I'm just trying to understand what is happening. This thread is about why French singers have such a tough time--- my opinion is that French songwriters are limited by the French language itself--- and that as a result French singers are essentially starved for material.

How would you rate Alizee's music... from Psychédélices on?


I know Alizee is a fan of the Corsican rock band called "Bande à part". They are a 3 man band and I think they are quite good. Their most popular song is probably Ricordu (translation: Memories). Alizee fans put together a video to the song which depict "memories", then Alizee appears in a still photo the last 30 seconds or so. Interesting video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNEN...rt_radio=1&t=0

[Shepherd]

Most of the world's superstars are singing urban music or street music of black American origin. France has a lot of black artists who are influenced by American music, but their music is primarily founded on African tribal culture. I don't think the French are very attracted to street music, so they're not producing many artists in that genre. Top stars (geniuses in their field) usually emerge from large populations of talent. The French are producing artists like Stromae, Indila, Christine and The Queens, Cœur De Pirate, Møme, Maître Gims, and Zaho whose style of music would have been familiar twenty or thirty years ago. Being an old guy, I'm drawn to that music.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGaC2vGZV-E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=bMPbYz3E8B0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=ROChfigwihw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvluZOKDBUA

[Mr Coucou]

Originally Posted by CleverCowboy

Popular music over the last decade or so, save a few songs here and there, has been pretty awful in my opinion. Maybe if I was 21 I would feel different because it would be the music I grew up with.

I think music has declined also--- in my view, particularly after around 2001-2003. Maybe I'm biased due to middle-age--- but there is scientific evidence that music has indeed declined:

"Millennials prefer music from 20th century ‘golden age’ to the pop of today, research suggests"

https://metro.co.uk/2019/02/07/mille...veals-8462993/

[Mr Coucou]

Originally Posted by CleverCowboy

How would you rate Alizee's music... from Psychédélices on?

I haven't listened to the entire albums.

I have listened to: "Grand Central", "A cause de l'automne" and "Mes Fantomes". I like those songs.

I need to listen to the rest of it.