Let's bury a couple of myths, OK?

[Geech]

I think these are more just your own thoughts then anything. I never believed any of these "myths".

[Deepwaters]

Originally Posted by heyamigo

but honestly nothing much has really happened

Sure it has. She's released a song. We now know what she's going to sound like. We don't know the new Alizée look, but we should know that tomorrow.

while it's silly to say that 100% of lili's success was due to MF/LB (i think it was more like 60% of it)

Well, that depends on how you measure it. But here's how I would do it. Ask yourself two questions:

1) How would Alizée have done if she'd been mentored and had her music written by someone else rather than Mylène? And:

2) How would Mylène's project of finding a younger singer to perform material that was wrong for Mylène herself have done if she'd chosen someone else rather than Alizée?

I think the answers are 1) Superbly and 2) Not worth a damn. Which means that the key factor in Alizée's success was Alizée, not Mylène -- Mylène was replaceable, Alizée was not.

it's too early to say anything conclusive about now vs then.

I can say that she's now singing material that Mylène and Laurent had nothing to do with writing/composing, and is no longer being managed by Mylène, and she sounds great and is doing well.

and cmon, we honestly don't know her relationship with jeremy well enough to say anything, but her music is probably not under the total control of him for the obvious fact that she doesn't want her album to bomb!

But the people suggesting that were implying that she's a weak-willed puppet who went from having Mylène control her strings to having Jérem' do it. I'm sure you're right (although a nicer way to say it is that she wants to produce her own vision rather than his), but if this idea were true she wouldn't be able to.

No, we don't know what their marital relationship is like nor do we need to, but we can see what their professional relationship is like. He's not calling the shots. He's her songwriter. Period.

Originally Posted by Geech

I never believed any of these "myths".

Glad to hear it; me neither. But there were people here who did, and more of them on AF, moaning that with M&L gone or with Jérémy writing her music it was going to be a disaster.

[RadioactiveMan]

Originally Posted by Deepwaters

2) How would Mylène's project of finding a younger singer to perform material that was wrong for Mylène herself have done if she'd chosen someone else rather than Alizée?

2) Not worth a damn. Which means that the key factor in Alizée's success was Alizée, not Mylène -- Mylène was replaceable, Alizée was not.

How is it that Alizée's career was unaffected by being chosen by Mylene?

[Edcognito]

Originally Posted by Deepwaters

Sure it has. She's released a song. We now know what she's going to sound like. We don't know the new Alizée look, but we should know that tomorrow.

Well, that depends on how you measure it. But here's how I would do it. Ask yourself two questions:

1) How would Alizée have done if she'd been mentored and had her music written by someone else rather than Mylène? And:

2) How would Mylène's project of finding a younger singer to perform material that was wrong for Mylène herself have done if she'd chosen someone else rather than Alizée?

I think the answers are 1) Superbly and 2) Not worth a damn. Which means that the key factor in Alizée's success was Alizée, not Mylène -- Mylène was replaceable, Alizée was not.

I can say that she's now singing material that Mylène and Laurent had nothing to do with writing/composing, and is no longer being managed by Mylène, and she sounds great and is doing well.

But the people suggesting that were implying that she's a weak-willed puppet who went from having Mylène control her strings to having Jérem' do it. I'm sure you're right (although a nicer way to say it is that she wants to produce her own vision rather than his), but if this idea were true she wouldn't be able to.

No, we don't know what their marital relationship is like nor do we need to, but we can see what their professional relationship is like. He's not calling the shots. He's her songwriter. Period.


Glad to hear it; me neither. But there were people here who did, and more of them on AF, moaning that with M&L gone or with Jérémy writing her music it was going to be a disaster.

Deep - sorry to do this to you, but all the things i've outlined in red are really opinions..... We've got several problems here.

1) Definition of Sucess - I define it one way, you may define it another, but the typical measure in "music" circles is sales. Until November, when the album comes out - we really won't know how Lili is doing until we get the first few weeks numbers back. We can "guess" and "speculate" according to how WE hear her, but nothing is in black and white yet.

2) How would Alzée have done if she hadn't been mentored by MF/LB - No way to know. We can postulate and hypothesize all we want - but there is NO concrete way of knowing what would have happened if MF/LB weren't behind Alizée, or if they had someone other than Alizée... They were behind Alizée (and she did well) and they did not use anyone else (and she is now internationally famous). Anything else is pure speculation and opinion....

3) "and she sounds great and is doing well." - Again (even tho I agree with you here) - this is purely opinion. As for how Lili is "doing" - we don't know that either, in an objective sense.. All we can know/judge is that she looks healthy (according to my definition) and "seems" happy. I"m NOT saying anything different, just that "we" can't know for sure without some objective measure......

4) He's her songwriter, period. - No idea if this is true or not and we don't know if he's going to get attribution for anything else or not, not until the album comes out. He "might" have had a hand in assisting her in the stuidio as well, either collaborativly with other songwriters or whatever, we just don't know..........

Myths are great things.... They make us think...


./duckhead

Ed

[heyamigo]

^^
great post Ed!

and why is it being said that jeremy is "her songwriter" when we have already been told about jean faque and bertrand burgalat, who are confirmed songwriters on the new album?

i also want to point out that there are other factors besides the music that was critical in alizée becoming huge under mylene. give credit to mylene where it is due because she knew how to play the game when it came to selling alizée.

mylene's marketing of alizée was incredible. from merchandising to strict image control, she had a huge role in popularity of alizée as alizée herself did. i know its early, but try comparing the underwhelming sony/rca is marketing of alizée vs the mylene days.

but in the end, i have to disagree with deepwaters about the music. despite everything that initially got me into alizée, a big part of the staying power is from the music itself. the music MF/LB made for her was so unique and appealing across so many levels, i have to say if the music came from somebody else, i probably wouldn't be as a big a fan and maybe not even a fan.

just remember, everyone has their own unique reasons for being a fan and sticking around, so i don't think you can make blanket statements like alizée would've been superb without mylene. i think they were both as important to the success as each other, and it was also an unbelievable luck of the perfect synergy. taking out any ingredients out of that would not have yielded the same success, imo.

but like i said, it's too early to make fair comparisons with now vs before, so let's see how things pan out, shall we?

[Edcognito]

Originally Posted by lead2gold

The fact that the first single is selling decent honestly means very little. We are just going to have to wait and see. She could still flop.

I wish you would have said "commercial" flop!

IMHO - she is GREAT! and doing even better!

I feel that she has nothing left to prove to anyone, and so therfore is spared the "flop" thingy. Her song is out, its a good song (imho), well crafted, danceable and catchy (addictive?) - so in my opinion, the whole "flop" thing isn't related to her at all, just the Pounds, Dollars, Francs, Krona and Marks that she/her record company get.

If you meant commercial flop - your right, she could still flop - but i feel that her return has been sucessfull!


Ed

[Edcognito]

[QUOTE=heyamigo;68713]^^
great post Ed!

(((snippage))) [what, you thought I might cut out the part where he complemented me? PLEASE!??!]

and why is it being said that jeremy is "her songwriter" when we have already been told about jean faque and bertrand burgalat, who are confirmed songwriters on the new album?


but like i said, it's too early to make fair comparisons with now vs before, so let's see how things pan out, shall we?[/QUOTE]

Agreed Amigo, I don't know about you, but I am very happy with how her comeback is going right now. I could wish that RCA/Sony were spending BILLIONS to advertise her around the world, but I BELIEVE that she is going to do fine just as is. Like you said, lets see how things pan out - beside, 1/2 the fun of being an Alizée fan outside of France is seeing just how things DO pan out!


Ed

[Deepwaters]

Originally Posted by Radioactive Man

How is it that Alizée's career was unaffected by being chosen by Mylene?

Being chosen by Mylène as opposed to being chosen by nobody? It was affected enormously!

Being chosen by Mylène as opposed to being chosen by somebody else? It wasn't affected all that much.

The point was that Mylène's role could have been filled by any good songwriter/manager, not that somebody in that role wasn't necessary.

Originally Posted by Edcognito

1) Definition of Sucess - I define it one way, you may define it another, but the typical measure in "music" circles is sales.

Yes, that's what I'm talking about. We have some sales figures. Granted they're only for a single and only for a few days, so things could turn a 180 down the road, but the early indications are good. I am NOT going just by what I like, or by my personal opinion.

2) How would Alzée have done if she hadn't been mentored by MF/LB - No way to know.

We can make a damned good educated guess, though. And please note my response to RAM above -- I'm not talking about Alizée striking out on her own at the age of 16. I only mean that Mylène's role in the partnership could have been filled by another older, more experienced musician. Alizée's role, however, could have been filled by nobody else. Thus, her success hinged not on Mylène, but on herself.

4) He's her songwriter, period. - No idea if this is true or not

You're taking me too literally here. Even if he had some other roles in the process, the point is that he's not her dictator, not in control -- she's in control. Actually I would be surprised to discover that he didn't do any performing, laying down some keyboard tracks for example. But that doesn't impact the sense of what I was saying.

and why is it being said that jeremy is "her songwriter" when we have already been told about jean faque and bertrand burgalat, who are confirmed songwriters on the new album?

"He's her songwriter, period" doesn't mean "he's her only songwriter," it means "he's only her songwriter." See the difference?

[Ben]

Originally Posted by Deepwaters

I only mean that Mylène's role in the partnership could have been filled by another older, more experienced musician. Alizée's role, however, could have been filled by nobody else. Thus, her success hinged not on Mylène, but on herself.

I dunno, both those points are pretty debatable.

While of course I think Alizee is immensely talented and could have done something else with another producer that I and most fans would like, I have no idea if such a partnership would have been so successful. Mylene and Alizee went together like chocolate and peanut butter, any other configuration may not have been so appetizing to the general public.

Likewise, I'm fairly sure Mylene could have found someone else to play her Lolita, and even possibly have been very successful with that. Certainly many Mylene fans think so. Though of course it wouldn't be the same combination that we know and love, so there'd be a different fan site here now populated by a different group of people.

None of this really matters because what happened happened and we got what we got. For sure I agree that Alizee doesn't depend on Mylene now for success, but did she ever? Who knows.

[rcs]

If they were still partnered, what kind of sound/image do you think would have been set for Alizee?