War with Russia likely?

[lilly]

Originally Posted by Edcognito

Now, if Georgia were suddenly found to be sitting on a few billion barrels of oil....

Ed

Then, they wouldn't be invited to the NATO. USA and their allies will find a reason to tear them a new @$$#0£€!

[Youpidou1]

2 super powers going to war is very unlikely because it will cause mass destruction. The amount of nukes we both own will annihilate the world. Each country doesn't want to do that to there people so I highly doubt there will be a war.

[Future Raptor Ace]

they said something on X-Play today I found ironic (yeah im quoting x-play I know but just hear me out) "Tom Clancy's End of War doesn't seem to far fetched now, Russia invades another European country which starts WWIII"
Yeah Steve thats what the UN is for. So another World War doesn't happen again.

[Tchaikovsky]

Rice: Military power is "not the way to deal in the 21st century"

Bush's secretary of state sermonizes against the use of military force as a means of delivering a message.

Glenn Greenwald

Aug. 19, 2008 | It's hardly news that the U.S., like many countries, espouses standards that it routinely violates, but still, even in light of such routine hypocrisy, wouldn't you think that this, from Condoleezza Rice today, on an airplane to U.S. reporters while traveling to a NATO meeting, would be too brazen to utter:

Russia is a state that is unfortunately using the one tool that it has always used whenever it wishes to deliver a message and that's its military power. That's not the way to deal in the 21st century.


Whatever one's views are on the justifiability of each isolated instance, it's simply a fact that the U.S. invades, bombs, occupies, and interferes in the internal affairs of other countries far more than any other country on the planet. It's not even a close competition.

Just during the time Rice has served in the Bush administration, we bombed, invaded and occupied Afghanistan; did the same to Iraq; repeatedly bombed Somalia, killing all sorts of civilians; fed bombs to Israel as they invaded and bombed Lebanon; top political officials (led by John McCain and Joe Lieberman) have repeatedly threatened, and advocated, that the same be done to a whole host of other countries, including Iran and Syria. That's to say nothing of the virtually countless interventions and bombings in the pre-Bush, "peacetime" years -- from the Balkans and Panama to Somalia, Iraq, Libya, Sudan, and on and on and on.
The most enduring and predominant rule of American politics is that every national politician must demonstrate their willingness, even eagerness, to start wars. On the day in 1989 that the first George Bush ordered the deadly U.S. invasion of Panama, The New York Times' R.W. Apple approvingly wrote on the front page that starting wars like that was "a Presidential initiation rite," and that "most American leaders since World War II have felt a need to demonstrate their willingness to shed blood to protect or advance what they construe as the national interest." Thus, proclaimed Apple, Bush's attack on Panama was an example of his "showing his steel" and "has shown him as a man capable of bold action."

A Kos diarist today hailed Joe Biden as an excellent Vice Presidential choice and, to bolster his argument, posted a video of Biden from a couple of months ago, appearing on The Today Show with Matt Lauer. The diarist believes the video shows how "tough" and "aggressive" Biden is. Lauer asked Biden how Democrats could combat the perception that Republicans are more trustworthy on national security because Democrats are "weak," and Biden assured Lauer that he had the right strategy to combat that:

LAUER: [McCain's] argument -- the Democratic Party itself, somewhere in the late 1960s, became weak on national security, at least perceived to be weak -- we started to see a party wringing its hands and blaming American for what's wrong in the world. Now, as we look at the upcoming election, particularly between a war hero and Barack Obama, do you think that's going to be a major problem for Democrats?

BIDEN: I think that's what they're going to revive. There's truth to that. I ran in 1972 as a young 29-year-old guy who won the Senate seat, being the guy who was viewed as a hawk, because I didn't join in that mantra.

It was Bill Clinton -- and, I might say, me pushing it -- saying that you had to go to war in the Balkans to end genocide. It was John McCain initially saying, no no no you can't do that -- the Republicans voting, no no no we can't do that.

Apparently, that's the way many Democrats believe they can and should answer the accusations that they're "weak" on national security -- not by contesting the underlying premises that starting wars is a sign of "strength,' but instead, by proving that they, too, want to prosecute wars -- just perhaps in different places or with different tactics. As Chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee in 2002, Biden also voted to authorize the attack on Iraq.

And Biden just returned from visiting Georgia, spouting all sorts of bluster towards Russia ("Russia's actions in Georgia will have consequences") and demanding that $1 billion of U.S. taxpayer money be transferred to Georgia to help them after they decided to start their own war (McClatchy: "Biden talks tough after Georgia visit"). As Billmon documented yesterday, Biden has been a leading proponent of passing legislation to demand NATO admission for Georgia and, even without it, to treat Georgia as though it is a full-fledged U.S. ally (Billmon: "There are times, it seems, when Joe Biden can be damned near as dangerous as Dick Cheney"). In Biden's mind, nobody will accuse him of being "weak" -- because he exudes the mandatory affection for using U.S. military force in a wide variety of situations far beyond self-defense.

The idea that the U.S. can, should and must be, more or less, in a state of permanent war, and can start wars in a whole host of circumstances having nothing to do with defending the country from an attack or imminent attack, is as close to an unchallengeable, bipartisan article of faith as it gets. We're a country that fights wars and uses military force in far more places and for far broader reasons than any other country in the world, by far. Again, regardless of one's views about whether our wars are really Good and Just -- even if one believes that what we drop on other countries are Good and Loving Freedom Bombs -- it's still just a fact that no country views military action as a more appropriate response in more situations than the U.S. does.

That's why it's so amazing to watch Condoleezza Rice, more or less without contradiction, say things like this:

Russia is a state that is unfortunately using the one tool that it has always used whenever it wishes to deliver a message and that's its military power. That's not the way to deal in the 21st century.


Other than our media elite, is there anyone who doesn't recognize how absurd it is for Rice to be issuing a sermon like that? Who is the target audience for that? And what does it say about our political discourse that Rice knows she can say things like that with a straight face -- and, before her, that John McCain can do much the same -- without its being pointed out how darkly laughable it is?


-- Glenn Greenwald
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwa...ice/index.html

[Youpidou1]

Originally Posted by Future Raptor Ace

they said something on X-Play today I found ironic (yeah im quoting x-play I know but just hear me out) "Tom Clancy's End of War doesn't seem to far fetched now, Russia invades another European country which starts WWIII"
Yeah Steve thats what the UN is for. So another World War doesn't happen again.

Exactly, Tom Clancy captures the events and wars and puts "Ghost's" in play of neutralizing a countries main source of power in an urban enviroment to keep away war. End War is the one game I have had on reserve since I heard of it. It will kill the games that come anywhere near the date it's coming out. All three games made by Tom Clancy, Splintercell, Rainbow Six, and Ghost Recon. All the main characters from each game will be put in End War as playable characters. But the concept of the game. Missile defense is far fetched because Ronald Reagen had a chance to get rid of THE WORLDS nuke's by sharing missile defense with the Russians. Seriously that's a call I could have made. It would keep the thought of the end of the world away plus it would put the USA and Russia in a state where going to war would be the worst thing for the world because of 2 super powers going to war and the world getting in on it. Seriously the USA and Russia have stockpiles of nukes. Whats the point if few will destroy the world. There a reason with having hundreds? That's why we make missile defense so we make nukes OBSOLETE.

[Tchaikovsky]

So then it would be acceptable for Russia to have a Missile defense shield in Mexico or Cuba yes?

[HelixSix]

Originally Posted by Tchaikovsky

So then it would be acceptable for Russia to have a Missile defense shield in Mexico or Cuba yes?

If Mexico or Cuba was one of their allies, then yes.

Like I said before I think a big part of this is sorting out who is committed allies with each other and clarifying what side everybody is on. I don't think any country is gonna use military force if they stand alone...but if allies are committed to help then things really have a chance at escalating.

And its pretty simple, some countries defend their defining principles without any doubt (America for instance). We might really get sucked into something big where our principles determine what we do.

[TheBarrett]

[Youpidou1]

Originally Posted by Tchaikovsky

Rice: Military power is "not the way to deal in the 21st century"

Bush's secretary of state sermonizes against the use of military force as a means of delivering a message.

Glenn Greenwald

Aug. 19, 2008 | It's hardly news that the U.S., like many countries, espouses standards that it routinely violates, but still, even in light of such routine hypocrisy, wouldn't you think that this, from Condoleezza Rice today, on an airplane to U.S. reporters while traveling to a NATO meeting, would be too brazen to utter:

Russia is a state that is unfortunately using the one tool that it has always used whenever it wishes to deliver a message and that's its military power. That's not the way to deal in the 21st century.


Whatever one's views are on the justifiability of each isolated instance, it's simply a fact that the U.S. invades, bombs, occupies, and interferes in the internal affairs of other countries far more than any other country on the planet. It's not even a close competition.

Just during the time Rice has served in the Bush administration, we bombed, invaded and occupied Afghanistan; did the same to Iraq; repeatedly bombed Somalia, killing all sorts of civilians; fed bombs to Israel as they invaded and bombed Lebanon; top political officials (led by John McCain and Joe Lieberman) have repeatedly threatened, and advocated, that the same be done to a whole host of other countries, including Iran and Syria. That's to say nothing of the virtually countless interventions and bombings in the pre-Bush, "peacetime" years -- from the Balkans and Panama to Somalia, Iraq, Libya, Sudan, and on and on and on.
The most enduring and predominant rule of American politics is that every national politician must demonstrate their willingness, even eagerness, to start wars. On the day in 1989 that the first George Bush ordered the deadly U.S. invasion of Panama, The New York Times' R.W. Apple approvingly wrote on the front page that starting wars like that was "a Presidential initiation rite," and that "most American leaders since World War II have felt a need to demonstrate their willingness to shed blood to protect or advance what they construe as the national interest." Thus, proclaimed Apple, Bush's attack on Panama was an example of his "showing his steel" and "has shown him as a man capable of bold action."

A Kos diarist today hailed Joe Biden as an excellent Vice Presidential choice and, to bolster his argument, posted a video of Biden from a couple of months ago, appearing on The Today Show with Matt Lauer. The diarist believes the video shows how "tough" and "aggressive" Biden is. Lauer asked Biden how Democrats could combat the perception that Republicans are more trustworthy on national security because Democrats are "weak," and Biden assured Lauer that he had the right strategy to combat that:

LAUER: [McCain's] argument -- the Democratic Party itself, somewhere in the late 1960s, became weak on national security, at least perceived to be weak -- we started to see a party wringing its hands and blaming American for what's wrong in the world. Now, as we look at the upcoming election, particularly between a war hero and Barack Obama, do you think that's going to be a major problem for Democrats?

BIDEN: I think that's what they're going to revive. There's truth to that. I ran in 1972 as a young 29-year-old guy who won the Senate seat, being the guy who was viewed as a hawk, because I didn't join in that mantra.

It was Bill Clinton -- and, I might say, me pushing it -- saying that you had to go to war in the Balkans to end genocide. It was John McCain initially saying, no no no you can't do that -- the Republicans voting, no no no we can't do that.

Apparently, that's the way many Democrats believe they can and should answer the accusations that they're "weak" on national security -- not by contesting the underlying premises that starting wars is a sign of "strength,' but instead, by proving that they, too, want to prosecute wars -- just perhaps in different places or with different tactics. As Chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee in 2002, Biden also voted to authorize the attack on Iraq.

And Biden just returned from visiting Georgia, spouting all sorts of bluster towards Russia ("Russia's actions in Georgia will have consequences") and demanding that $1 billion of U.S. taxpayer money be transferred to Georgia to help them after they decided to start their own war (McClatchy: "Biden talks tough after Georgia visit"). As Billmon documented yesterday, Biden has been a leading proponent of passing legislation to demand NATO admission for Georgia and, even without it, to treat Georgia as though it is a full-fledged U.S. ally (Billmon: "There are times, it seems, when Joe Biden can be damned near as dangerous as Dick Cheney"). In Biden's mind, nobody will accuse him of being "weak" -- because he exudes the mandatory affection for using U.S. military force in a wide variety of situations far beyond self-defense.

The idea that the U.S. can, should and must be, more or less, in a state of permanent war, and can start wars in a whole host of circumstances having nothing to do with defending the country from an attack or imminent attack, is as close to an unchallengeable, bipartisan article of faith as it gets. We're a country that fights wars and uses military force in far more places and for far broader reasons than any other country in the world, by far. Again, regardless of one's views about whether our wars are really Good and Just -- even if one believes that what we drop on other countries are Good and Loving Freedom Bombs -- it's still just a fact that no country views military action as a more appropriate response in more situations than the U.S. does.

That's why it's so amazing to watch Condoleezza Rice, more or less without contradiction, say things like this:

Russia is a state that is unfortunately using the one tool that it has always used whenever it wishes to deliver a message and that's its military power. That's not the way to deal in the 21st century.


Other than our media elite, is there anyone who doesn't recognize how absurd it is for Rice to be issuing a sermon like that? Who is the target audience for that? And what does it say about our political discourse that Rice knows she can say things like that with a straight face -- and, before her, that John McCain can do much the same -- without its being pointed out how darkly laughable it is?


-- Glenn Greenwald
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwa...ice/index.html

This ponders me. 1.47 Trillion on WHAT. Defenses to make yourself stronger? Use that money to feed the world, or better yet. Rebuild the bad parts of the world. Get rid of the worlds weapons and lets live on the 1 world we have. Not destroy it and live in fear for the rest of our lives. One big stockpile in the deepest part of the ocean all our weapons should go and then we will live in peace forever.

[Tchaikovsky]