Im extremely dissapointed in you forum!! - Page 3

Junkmale · #21 09-03-2012, 06:43 PM

......................

user472884 · #22 09-03-2012, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Future Raptor Ace

Yes I am ... though I am not responsible for Corsaire's actions.

That's surprising.

It doesn't seem like you've yet received an apology from the forum for offending you.

Future Raptor Ace · #23 09-03-2012, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jalen

That's surprising.

It doesn't seem like you've yet received an apology from the forum for offending you.

Im glad you chose not read the thread in its entirety .. it explains your unjust bias! Read before you post! And the forum never offended me, that is your words ... read what I and others have wrote!
http://alizeeamerica.com/forums/show...01&postcount=3
http://alizeeamerica.com/forums/show...04&postcount=4
http://alizeeamerica.com/forums/show...08&postcount=6
http://alizeeamerica.com/forums/show...6&postcount=13
Overall ide say I got my point across!

Corsaire · #24 09-04-2012, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junkmale

......................

Hey JM, why did you modify the insulting message you posted earlier? Don’t worry mate, we are just having fun here.

The thing I never understood is how anyone could actually believe that NASA went from a program that was in complete disarray when it fried 3 astronauts to death in a *simulated* launch *test* that was to *prepare* for a *test* flight which was needed to *test* the Command/Service Module in *Earth* orbit (Apollo 1) to a successful landing of a man on the moon (Apollo 11) just 2.5 years later while managing 400,000 people and collaborating with over 20,000 firms and universities.

This narrative is so improbable, it is preposterous. This is like a company who accidently kills a test pilot in a fire in the cockpit during a simulation that was supposed to be a test to make sure that the first prototype of a plane could later be tested so it can attempt to fly 3 km, and, 2.5 years later, the same company transports passengers across the ocean routinely. The most ridiculous Hollywood scripts require less suspension of disbelief than this fable.

Actually, the Apollo 1 crew were so worried for their lives and so critical of the program that they presented this picture to their manager... a few months before they fried to death:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:A1prayer.jpg

“I said, how are we gonna get to the moon if we can't talk between two or three buildings”
-A frustrated Grissom during the test that took his life.

“Every element of the program was in trouble and so were we. The simulators were not working, Mission Control was behind in virtually every area, and the flight and test procedures changed daily. Nothing we did had any shelf life. Not one of us stood up and said, 'Dammit, stop!' I don't know what Thompson's committee will find as the cause, but I know what I find. We are the cause! We were not ready! We did not do our job. We were rolling the dice, hoping that things would come together by launch day, when in our hearts we knew it would take a miracle. We were pushing the schedule and betting that the Cape would slip before we did.”
- Gene Kranz, NASA Flight Director, reflecting on the state of the Apollo program.

... and then 2.5 years later, 6 months before the “before this decade is out” deadline famously set by Kennedy, Neil shows up on the moon. I think Neil was great in this one. Did he also play in that other great movie about inducing a dream state to plant ideas in people’s head?... Inception, I think it was.

He doesn’t seem too comfy in the video below though. I feel a little tension and hesitation. I wouldn’t say Neil strikes me as the calm, assured and confident fellow ready to deal with any critical situation. It looks like he is going to drop to the floor at any moment. Buzz and Collins seem a little tensed too.
(just watch the first 3 or 4 min, starting at 1m30s):

user472884 · #25 09-04-2012, 04:01 AM

Now it's getting entertaining.

Corsaire · #26 09-04-2012, 07:41 AM

You won’t need much popcorn as it never gets entertaining for too long on AAm.

In any case, I think Neil would have been very proud of my attempt to do exactly what he has asked us to do:

Junkmale · #27 09-04-2012, 12:44 PM

@ Corsaire
Quite correct.
I posted something insulting (to you). Thought about it and removed it.
Life's too short.

Future Raptor Ace · #28 09-04-2012, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corsaire

Hey JM, why did you modify the insulting message you posted earlier? Don’t worry mate, we are just having fun here.

The thing I never understood is how anyone could actually believe that NASA went from a program that was in complete disarray when it fried 3 astronauts to death in a *simulated* launch *test* that was to *prepare* for a *test* flight which was needed to *test* the Command/Service Module in *Earth* orbit (Apollo 1) to a successful landing of a man on the moon (Apollo 11) just 2.5 years later while managing 400,000 people and collaborating with over 20,000 firms and universities.

This narrative is so improbable, it is preposterous. This is like a company who accidently kills a test pilot in a fire in the cockpit during a simulation that was supposed to be a test to make sure that the first prototype of a plane could later be tested so it can attempt to fly 3 km, and, 2.5 years later, the same company transports passengers across the ocean routinely. The most ridiculous Hollywood scripts require less suspension of disbelief than this fable.

Actually, the Apollo 1 crew were so worried for their lives and so critical of the program that they presented this picture to their manager... a few months before they fried to death:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:A1prayer.jpg

“I said, how are we gonna get to the moon if we can't talk between two or three buildings”
-A frustrated Grissom during the test that took his life.

“Every element of the program was in trouble and so were we. The simulators were not working, Mission Control was behind in virtually every area, and the flight and test procedures changed daily. Nothing we did had any shelf life. Not one of us stood up and said, 'Dammit, stop!' I don't know what Thompson's committee will find as the cause, but I know what I find. We are the cause! We were not ready! We did not do our job. We were rolling the dice, hoping that things would come together by launch day, when in our hearts we knew it would take a miracle. We were pushing the schedule and betting that the Cape would slip before we did.”
- Gene Kranz, NASA Flight Director, reflecting on the state of the Apollo program.

... and then 2.5 years later, 6 months before the “before this decade is out” deadline famously set by Kennedy, Neil shows up on the moon. I think Neil was great in this one. Did he also play in that other great movie about inducing a dream state to plant ideas in people’s head?... Inception, I think it was.

He doesn’t seem too comfy in the video below though. I feel a little tension and hesitation. I wouldn’t say Neil strikes me as the calm, assured and confident fellow ready to deal with any critical situation. It looks like he is going to drop to the floor at any moment. Buzz and Collins seem a little tensed too.
(just watch the first 3 or 4 min, starting at 1m30s):

You sir are a complete moron! NASA was not in complete disarray when Gus Grissom (probably my favorite astronaut and I’ll get to that later) Ed Ward White (first American to do an EVA) and Roger Chaffey died; which was a sad price to pay in the goal of human exploration. What you fail to even grasp was the Apollo missions did not just come out of thin air, they were a collaboration of lessons learned in previous programs launched over the decade. The only time NASA was in complete disarray was in the late 50s when we had a failure rate of about 60% and where struggling to keep up with the Russians. That all ended in the 60s with Project Mercury. Project Mercury was to get men into space as well as orbit and teaching astronauts how to EVA and then project Gemini taught astronauts how to fly in space, how to do a rondevu and docking procedure in space, all necessary STEPS in going to the moon. Also please do not say fried, (I do think you didn’t mean harm by that statement but it is very disrespectful) you are talking about human beings who died a most gruesome death (though some say they didn’t suffer since the gases made them go unconscious and then suffocated them rather quickly and the suits protected them from major burns .. but however I did hear the cockpit recording and there were a lot of screams you hope to never hear again)!
It would seem that you do not even understand what was wrong with the command module and that is why you do not understand it did not delay the program for as long as your ignorant self might think; let me educate you! The first Apollo capsule was using very dangerous pure oxygen and I’m sure you probably don’t know this from chemistry, but pure oxygen is extremely flammable and a very dangerous gas to use. However this was something overlooked by the engineers in designing the capsule and this was the first time pure oxygen was being used. Pure oxygen wasn’t even used on Mercury or Gemini because of how dangerous it was. So now when a wire shorted in the capsule during the training exercise the spark instantly ignited. Exacerbating the situation is the fact that the capsule hatch opened inwards. Once again since I don’t think you are too intelligent in this subject you probably do not know that when you have a fire in an enclosed surface you have a rise in pressure pushing outwards on all surfaces. This outward pressure pushing against an inward opening hatch made it impossible to get the hatch door opened in time. The irony of this is Gus himself was the reason as to why NASA designed the hatch to open inwards was because, and I’m sure you are already very familiar with this and NASA history (of course you aren’t), Gus almost died when his Liberty-Bell 7 hatch blew open, after he landed in the water at the conclusion of his mission, causing his Liberty-Bell 7 capsule to sink in the ocean almost drowning him. As reason as to why he wanted and inward opening hatch is, as again I’m sure you know, when sinking in water you have an increase in pressure on the outside surfaces pushing inward … so and increase in inward pressure and an inward opening hatch make it easy to escape a sinking capsule which is why he wanted this redesign (unlike his mercury Liberty-Bell 7 capsule which had a hatch that opened outward in which would be fairly easy to open in a fire). After the Apollo 1 accident NASA and all the engineers at North American did a complete overhaul on the Apollo command module, changing wiring, modules, as well as changing the oxidizer system and the hatch making it open outwards like it was previously on Mercury and Gemini. That is all they had to redesign, they did not change any of the Saturn V’s boosters and or launch systems which is the bulk of the design. Really they just reconfigured the command module; they didn’t have to start from scratch redesigning it instead just redesign various parts deemed unsafe. Furthermore many people such as my hero Gene Kranz claim this redesign of the command module to be something that saved the whole program and that if it wasn’t for the redesign we would have never made it to the moon.

Quote:

This narrative is so improbable, it is preposterous. This is like a company who accidently kills a test pilot in a fire in the cockpit during a simulation that was supposed to be a test to make sure that the first prototype of a plane could later be tested so it can attempt to fly 3 km, and, 2.5 years later, the same company transports passengers across the ocean routinely. The most ridiculous Hollywood scripts require less suspension of disbelief than this fable.

Once again you prove your illusion of knowledge and you prove yourself wrong in your example. What you said happens ALL THE TIME, more test pilots die in simulations and tests than you can shake a stick at the company is tasked with issuing a redesign! Sure the company doesn’t like this and rather this not happen but prototypes are risky; especially in those days when you don’t have computer simulations and software such as CAD, CAE, FEA, and CFD! (Computer Aided Design, Computer Aided Engineering, Finite Element Analysis, and Computational Fluid Dynamics …. I gave you all the terms look them up and will be happy to answer questions you have on them) You should also research Edwards Air Force Base and see how many test pilots died there, as for that was and still is the premiere place for any prototype /flight testing that is done in the Aerospace business, flying/working/testing simulations for prototypes. Also look up F-104 Starfighter (which also was known to fly at Edwards) also known as the “Widowmaker” … it was called that for a reason! Neil Armstrong himself almost died in a simulation flight testing the lunar lander … but he ejected seconds before the crash and it is said if he ejected half a second later he would have died due to his parachute not opening in time! Also know that Neil and a lot of his fellow astronaut colleagues were test pilots at Edwards; Neil had some close calls on his life there testing aircraft. I really don’t understand how you can know so little and jump to these conclusions and have the nerve to argue! Then you have the nerve to hijack my thread with your stupid lies/ignorance, I do not take that lightly!

Quote:

Actually, the Apollo 1 crew were so worried for their lives and so critical of the program that they presented this picture to their manager... a few months before they fried to death:

No they weren’t worried about their lives, death is a part of life for test pilots as I mentioned before and guess where Gus was before he was selected to be an astronaut … that’s right Edwards Air Force Base, they were more worried about the mission as for they viewed the mission above their own lives; and you have taken that picture completely out of context! They were praying for the success of their mission possibly even reciting Shepard’s prayer very common among astronauts after Alan Shepard said it and still common today “Dear lord, please don’t let me fuck this up!” Also you said going to the moon wasn’t risky before; it seems you are going back on that…?

Quote:

“I said, how are we gonna get to the moon if we can't talk between two or three buildings”
-A frustrated Grissom during the test that took his life.

Yes you finally got something right, Gus did say that! There was a recording of the cockpit on youtube but I can no longer find it; Gus said that if I remember correctly 7 minutes before the fire started (irrelevant to my point .. just a statement). However what he said was a frustrated joke, he was pissed that COM was horrible and he couldn’t hear mission control! Similar uses, in different context, of that frustrated joke are used all the time in everyday life; it doesn’t mean on is serious. An example; “Jimmy how are you going to get to the fourth grade if you still can’t sit still?” It does mean who ever said that doubts Jimmy will make it to the fourth grade!

Quote:

“Every element of the program was in trouble and so were we. The simulators were not working, Mission Control was behind in virtually every area, and the flight and test procedures changed daily. Nothing we did had any shelf life. Not one of us stood up and said, 'Dammit, stop!' I don't know what Thompson's committee will find as the cause, but I know what I find. We are the cause! We were not ready! We did not do our job. We were rolling the dice, hoping that things would come together by launch day, when in our hearts we knew it would take a miracle. We were pushing the schedule and betting that the Cape would slip before we did.”
- Gene Kranz, NASA Flight Director, reflecting on the state of the Apollo program.

Gene Kranz also said that but he was having a hard time with NASA management at the time. Like what happen in 1986 with Shuttle Challenger NASA management just wanted things done and done quick and were not listing to their engineers which pissed a lot of people off including Gene Kranz. Management was taking risks to speed things up and sometimes you get away with those risks and sometimes you have to pay for them, Apollo 1, Challenger, and Columbia!

Quote:

... and then 2.5 years later, 6 months before the “before this decade is out” deadline famously set by Kennedy, Neil shows up on the moon. I think Neil was great in this one. Did he also play in that other great movie about inducing a dream state to plant ideas in people’s head?... Inception, I think it was.

This keeps going over dimwitted head … it took a whole decade of lessons starting with Project Mercury, things did not just happen overnight even though to ignorant people like you it seems that way. And you could take what I’m saying to bank as for I am taught by and have the honor of knowing professors who were in the industry at the time. It was a decade long chronicle of R&D, sometimes by trial and error, and then design and manufacturing.

Quote:

He doesn’t seem too comfy in the video below though. I feel a little tension and hesitation. I wouldn’t say Neil strikes me as the calm, assured and confident fellow ready to deal with any critical situation. It looks like he is going to drop to the floor at any moment. Buzz and Collins seem a little tensed too.
(just watch the first 3 or 4 min, starting at 1m30s):

One thing you should know about Neil is he was always shy and never liked a lot of attention. Even when he was a test pilot, long before he was an astronaut. Even after his Gemini mission he tried to elude cameras, this was long before he was selected to be the first man on the moon because Gus Grissom was the one who was most likely going to get the task … up until he passed away on Apollo 1, that is just Neil’s character and if you knew anything about the man it would be obvious to you! Second these men are astronauts, test pilots, not actors or celebrities … they are not used to all the attention they are getting and not used to being in the spotlight and on camera like that so of course they are nervous! Hell you might ask why they are nervous for a measly interview and are able to land on the moon? Well I’m not a physiologist but sometimes even when you tell yourself there is no reason to be nervous you cannot control the rush of adrenaline your body gets. These men trained to fly spacecraft and aircraft, not how to be masters of interviews; they are clearly out of their norm and doing something they are not accustomed to! Hell there are some celebrities and musicians who are great on stage and in front of the camera but freeze/get shy during interviews … maybe even Alizee is one of them! Your video does not prove any point!
Lastly how come space agencies and observatorys from around the world analyze the remains we left on the moon to see how objects last in a vacuum and all claim to monitor the Apollo landing sights with none claiming they can’t find anything? Why is that? Also how come a satellite from another country (I think Japan) captured an image of the flag on the moon still standing there today (though it has been faded white) .. why is that? How come top scientists from around the world all say we landed on the moon and its idiots like you who are not in the STEM profession who say otherwise? You say there is no evidence that we landed there … you are a fool because the only evidence missing is evidence that we haven't landed there! Nothing more to say to you because I have given you more time than you deserved, it is not my fault if you don’t want to seek the information; because it is all there! “The enemy of knowledge is not ignorance but the illusion of knowledge!” – Stephen Hawking~

Quote:

Originally Posted by Junkmale

@ Corsaire
Quite correct.
I posted something insulting (to you). Thought about it and removed it.
Life's too short.

Unlike you Junkmale, I couldnt retain my self control and show restraint though I respect the hell out of you for retaining yours. What Corsaire said is so complelty wrong that it just has to be corrected!
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Junkmale · #29 09-04-2012, 07:14 PM

Ah..the Lockheed Starfighter.....
Brought this to mind :-)

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/kzNg23XVyEM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Azhiri · #30 09-04-2012, 08:54 PM

Was just checking in and noticed this going on. My dad works at NASA and has been passionate about science and aeronautics all his life, he saw the moon landing on television as a kid and has done a lot of research and followed NASA closely up to getting hired there. So I decided to let him read all of this and asked for his opinion. His first comment was "That's just silly, it would cost a hell of a lot more to fund a huge conspiracy like that than it costs to fund our projects, NASA has never had that kind of funding. We should be so lucky." I too think it's a lot more far-fetched that they could pull off something like that as opposed to actually going to the moon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corsaire

Hey JM, why did you modify the insulting message you posted earlier? Don’t worry mate, we are just having fun here.

The thing I never understood is how anyone could actually believe that NASA went from a program that was in complete disarray when it fried 3 astronauts to death in a *simulated* launch *test* that was to *prepare* for a *test* flight which was needed to *test* the Command/Service Module in *Earth* orbit (Apollo 1) to a successful landing of a man on the moon (Apollo 11) just 2.5 years later while managing 400,000 people and collaborating with over 20,000 firms and universities.

This narrative is so improbable, it is preposterous. This is like a company who accidently kills a test pilot in a fire in the cockpit during a simulation that was supposed to be a test to make sure that the first prototype of a plane could later be tested so it can attempt to fly 3 km, and, 2.5 years later, the same company transports passengers across the ocean routinely. The most ridiculous Hollywood scripts require less suspension of disbelief than this fable.

He said, "That isn't remarkable to me at all. Apollo 1 was just one failure among a lot of successes for us. We learned a great deal of things with each project. That's why Apollo 11 was successful."

As for whether Neil Armstrong's death was sad or not, I don't think anyone is grieving for a man who simply did what he was trained to do and followed orders. I think everyone is grieving for a man who was given a big responsibility, handled it professionally, selflessly risked his life to help a cause much, much bigger than himself, was very humble about it, became an icon, and inspired millions of people. He was also said to be very kind. He was seen as a national treasure, and an American hero. Even if he did simply follow his orders, he proved that for humans, even the sky is not the limit. He represented the thousands of people who worked to make the landing happen with pride and dignity.

Now to put my mod gloves back on, I don't want this to get ugly - no more name-calling or insults to personal intelligence, that's silly and we're all bigger and better than that.

FRA, I know you're very passionate about this sort of thing but other people are not so passionate. Some may not be as informed, some may be just as informed - they just choose to interpret things differently, or think outside the box and challenge what people accept as fact, which is very brave if you think about it, whether we agree or not. We all have our niche.