May 21st 2011 doomsday! - Page 6

lefty12357 · #51 05-28-2011, 06:16 PM

Let's avoid bringing religion into this discussion, as it is one of the subjects we don't discuss here according to forum rules. I have many thoughts on the subject, but I will not voice them here. I realize that the subject of religion often is involved in doomsday predictions, but let's not get into that aspect of it.

I agree that we humans have many differences that we have to learn to overcome in order for us to improve our odds for being around in the future. Personally, I don't think it is hopeless, but our future is not guaranteed either.

Future Raptor Ace · #52 05-28-2011, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lefty12357

Well we are speculating on things we really can’t know much about, but this subject has always fascinated me. And what the hell, it’s kind of fun to spin different scenarios on the subject.

Ah, but what good is one starship? If an alien race knew we existed because of our radio and TV broadcasts, then they would not be that many light years distant from us, but still the round trip would be quite lengthy. To carry off enough resources to help their dying planet in a timely manner, they would need to build a huge fleet of spaceships, which would require a lot of resources and time. Of course traveling near the speed of light would also mean that they would probably never get back in time to save their planet because of the time dilation effect. (Of course there could be a mode of travel still unknown to us.) If they chose to move their population to earth, again they would need a huge fleet. I believe if they have the technology to do that, they would have the technology to manipulate matter and energy to suit their needs, thus not making it worth it to come steal from us. If they simply planned on sending a small number of individuals to colonize and preserve their race, then their best bet might be to try to live among us openly by trading any technological achievements they can share. However, I think these scenarios are unlikely.

If an alien race did not know we existed, which is more likely to me, then they would have to mount a comprehensive search of at least the local area of the galaxy to even find us. Again, this would require a huge outlay in resources over a very, very long period of time. Carl Sagan and a colleague of his did some calculations on this idea.* Assuming a space faring civilization existed 200 light years away from us, it would take approximately a million years to find us as they expanded outwards. There would be no reason to focus in our direction, so they would be dealing with a spherical area of a radius of 200 light years which would contain around 200,000 suns to check out. My point in all this is that this is the scenario that is probably most likely for an in person visit. A civilization sending out one ship from a nearby location to take our planet from us because they lack resources seems highly unlikely to me. I still think a transmission is the most probable first contact.

Well, as I stated above, a civilization likely to encounter us would have probably had space travel capability for a million years or more. Our civilization is in its infancy relative to any aliens we are likely to encounter and I don’t think one can assume they will be like humans who have only been at the game for a few thousand years. I truly believe a technological civilization hundreds of thousands, if not millions of years old will not only be way beyond us technologically, but also socially. It’s not just about valuing life, it’s about a million years of cultural and social evolution too. Not to mention wisdom.

@FRA, I’m not saying you are wrong. In fact you may be perfectly right. But I think there are many other possibilities just as viable, such as a few of the ones I mentioned above, as well as possibilities we haven’t mentioned, considered, or even thought of.

By the way, I really like these 2 videos by Neil deGrasse Tyson. It is food for thought.

http://youtu.be/DIE-363fNw0

http://youtu.be/ugCKoj_t5Hg

* - From Sagan's book "Cosmos", Chapter 12

^Some good points and you may very well be right!
I just think there is a chance resources needed for technological development and resources needed for survival can be two complete different entities coming from two different sources.
I love this link you gave (

) I couldnt agree more. A lot of what we think about them is in fact human bias. We personify them with our own emotions, cultures, and being.

A question I have from this video is what defines intelligence .... people think intelligence is special and rare in the cosmos but how do you define it. Can chimps be considered intelligent?
Also I think there are aliens out there more intelligent than us, less intelligent than us and at about the same level ..... so his example all depends on who we meet.
Very good videos lefty .... very good mind food ... you gotta love Neil deGrasse Tyson, ill definitely think about this while relaxing in bed before I go to sleep.

lefty12357 · #53 05-28-2011, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Future Raptor Ace

A question I have from this video is what defines intelligence .... people think intelligence is special and rare in the cosmos but how do you define it. Can chimps be considered intelligent?
Also I think there are aliens out there more intelligent than us, less intelligent than us and at about the same level ..... so his example all depends on who we meet.
Very good videos lefty .... very good mind food ... you gotta love Neil deGrasse Tyson, ill definitely think about this while relaxing in bed before I go to sleep.

Yeah, I really like Neil too. Neil, Carl and people like them really give a person a lot to think about.

I've always thought of intelligence as being a matter of degree rather than a simple yes or no. I suppose that's what Neil was implying. We may know where we stand relative to chimps, but I suppose we don't know just how far above us the scale goes. There's probably a lot of room for us to grow.

Life could be very interesting for many generations to come.

HelixSix · #54 05-28-2011, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lefty12357

Let's avoid bringing religion into this discussion, as it is one of the subjects we don't discuss here according to forum rules. I have many thoughts on the subject, but I will not voice them here. I realize that the subject of religion often is involved in doomsday predictions, but let's not get into that aspect of it.

The title refers to the prediction Harold Camping made which is religious in itself. You might have a point if the thread was "Doomsday predictions" or a "End of the world" subject but the thread is directly about the May 21st Rapture prediction. I don't know how much more specific that could be.

You tell me to keep religion out of the discussion but don't say anything to Naft about posting this,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naft

It wasn't exactly the doomsday today, it was the rapture. Where everyone that was Christian and truly devoted to god would get to heaven and be in peace with him there with the rest of these that got raptured, and the world would become a living hell (not sure) ruled by Satan.

Harold Camping said that the rapture would occur yesterday, it might just happen that we're all degenerate, sinning, heretics that have been living in hell so we don't notice a difference.

After the same guy being wrong once before in '94 I had no doubt nothing would happen, then again I am not a religious man so I can't say that I have ever believed in any apocalyptic event that is not a giant asteroid, gamma ray burst sent directly towards our planet or the sun devouring us when it makes it transformation, but I still found it fascinating that he was so dedicated to his doomsday, and that people followed him despite as aforementioned, him being wrong before.

or mal,

Quote:

Originally Posted by mal

Im not religious but ironically the bible tells of 'false prophets' just before the rapture.

Yet when I post, bam, immediate warning. If you were being fair you would have warned them. And according to the "rules", or yours, (I've yet to see which set you follow) you should have deleted this thread as soon as it was created.

What if somebody really religious here got offended? Or somebody who has sympathy for Harold Camping. I guess that doesn't matter because it's only about what you think is right/wrong, allowed, or your feelings about it or certain people involved. A conflict could have easily started since people were mocking and making jokes, or after Naft's comment. I'm surprised some Christians here didn't jump in. I wonder what you would have done then.

You are a completely biased hypocrite. I've taken screenshots and saved text files so try to cover this up and dig whatever hole you want like the other mods have. Go ahead and throw the rule book at me because it's only gonna prove even more that you didn't do your job. No wonder Merci made a couple bad judgments, he was probably following your lead.

Everybody you need to know that I wouldn't have anything to say to certain mods if they were fair to everybody. Sorry to mess this thread up since the science is good subject matter but the mod behavior is getting worse. If Naft doesn't get warned for talking about religion but I do, and religion is one of the subjects we don't discuss here, and the topic is about the event of the End Times when the Christians of the world will be gathered together in the air to meet Jesus Christ, and the topic is allowed to continue then something is definitely wrong.

Merci Alizée · #55 05-29-2011, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HelixSix

You are a completely biased hypocrite. I've taken screenshots and saved text files so try to cover this up and dig whatever hole you want like the other mods have. Go ahead and throw the rule book at me because it's only gonna prove even more that you didn't do your job. No wonder Merci made a couple bad judgments, he was probably following your lead.

Everybody you need to know that I wouldn't have anything to say to certain mods if they were fair to everybody. Sorry to mess this thread up since the science is good subject matter but the mod behavior is getting worse. If Naft doesn't get warned for talking about religion but I do, and religion is one of the subjects we don't discuss here, and the topic is about the event of the End Times when the Christians of the world will be gathered together in the air to meet Jesus Christ, and the topic is allowed to continue then something is definitely wrong.

I have a suggestion if you don't mind. You can help this site. Since your concern is about is not limited this thread rather to overall behavior of mods, so I believe you should also contact the person who has higher authority than mods. You can express your concern to him and present your suggestions for making the forum better, or you can send a forum feedback.. If you have already done this then ignore my message. If you don't want to take trouble of that then you can create a thread in Support section of this forum with your concern and suggestions. While repeating same thing again and again (like mods behavior is getting worse) in different threads won't do any good (that's just my opinion), directly presenting valuable insights to someone who can really do something about this or even your valuable insights in a separate thread can help this forum. I remember once you said that we are not kids and we don't need mods here or lesser mods, so if you create a thread in support section then you can create a poll which can give better idea of what others think about it. And who knows if it is found that most of the members are in favor of the idea of lesser mods then your idea might be implemented. But that's just a suggestion. It's up to you decide whether to follow this suggestion or come up some better idea or just continue to do the same thing in different threads.

Future Raptor Ace · #56 05-29-2011, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HelixSix

The title refers to the prediction Harold Camping made which is religious in itself. You might have a point if the thread was "Doomsday predictions" or a "End of the world" subject but the thread is directly about the May 21st Rapture prediction. I don't know how much more specific that could be.

You tell me to keep religion out of the discussion but don't say anything to Naft about posting this,

or mal,

Yet when I post, bam, immediate warning. If you were being fair you would have warned them. And according to the "rules", or yours, (I've yet to see which set you follow) you should have deleted this thread as soon as it was created.

What if somebody really religious here got offended? Or somebody who has sympathy for Harold Camping. I guess that doesn't matter because it's only about what you think is right/wrong, allowed, or your feelings about it or certain people involved. A conflict could have easily started since people were mocking and making jokes, or after Naft's comment. I'm surprised some Christians here didn't jump in. I wonder what you would have done then.

You are a completely biased hypocrite. I've taken screenshots and saved text files so try to cover this up and dig whatever hole you want like the other mods have. Go ahead and throw the rule book at me because it's only gonna prove even more that you didn't do your job. No wonder Merci made a couple bad judgments, he was probably following your lead.

Everybody you need to know that I wouldn't have anything to say to certain mods if they were fair to everybody. Sorry to mess this thread up since the science is good subject matter but the mod behavior is getting worse. If Naft doesn't get warned for talking about religion but I do, and religion is one of the subjects we don't discuss here, and the topic is about the event of the End Times when the Christians of the world will be gathered together in the air to meet Jesus Christ, and the topic is allowed to continue then something is definitely wrong.

I dont know why im even responding but I made an EFFORT to never mention religion ... you are the one who seems to have brought it up ... or conflict nevertheless! This topic was never about religion but to simply discuss the possibility of not waking up the next morning and it has turned into one of the best discussions I have had in years on this forum. Naft, Lefty, Azhiri and others .... it has been an absolute privilege talking about this interesting "stuff" that has all of humanity lingering in curiosity and I hope it can continue in the same peaceful and intellectual way it has been for the past week!
Mike~

Människöpesten · #57 05-29-2011, 01:46 AM

Naft · #58 05-30-2011, 07:06 AM

Okay, fine, avoid the resources thing completely. I thought about it for a day yesterday when I didn't have time to reply and now don't see what I was thinking. Earth has no particular resource that is rare in space, our entire solar system is made of the most abundant elements in the universe, nothing can be found here that is of any importance beyond life.

About their curiosity though, I remember Neil deGrasse talking about something similar. He used the example that we see animals as we see humans, like they have houses and clothes and talk just like we do. The truth is they don't, but we all have one common thing that is shared with all animals on Earth. We shouldn't take for granted that all aliens have it though. Nothing's to say that even if there is life close-by that it is curious of what is around them, they stay at the same place as their ancestors did and their ancestors before that, they have a thick atmosphere so they can't see the stars surrounding them, they only know they're alive and everything else is dangerous. I realize this is a hard thought to think of, but that is Neils point in the example, we can't imagine any way but our way. We do not only need to find life, but we need to find intelligent life, that has been curious to make them intelligent. These statistics seem rather low, but given the almost infinite size of the universe the odds increases, but I still doubt we will find alien-life, at least in my lifetime. There is however nothing wrong with them finding us, but the size also works as the problem for this.

(Pretty much only my thinking being written down here, not relevant to anything)

Future Raptor Ace · #59 05-30-2011, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naft

Okay, fine, avoid the resources thing completely. I thought about it for a day yesterday when I didn't have time to reply and now don't see what I was thinking. Earth has no particular resource that is rare in space, our entire solar system is made of the most abundant elements in the universe, nothing can be found here that is of any importance beyond life.

About their curiosity though, I remember Neil deGrasse talking about something similar. He used the example that we see animals as we see humans, like they have houses and clothes and talk just like we do. The truth is they don't, but we all have one common thing that is shared with all animals on Earth. We shouldn't take for granted that all aliens have it though. Nothing's to say that even if there is life close-by that it is curious of what is around them, they stay at the same place as their ancestors did and their ancestors before that, they have a thick atmosphere so they can't see the stars surrounding them, they only know they're alive and everything else is dangerous. I realize this is a hard thought to think of, but that is Neils point in the example, we can't imagine any way but our way. We do not only need to find life, but we need to find intelligent life, that has been curious to make them intelligent. These statistics seem rather low, but given the almost infinite size of the universe the odds increases, but I still doubt we will find alien-life, at least in my lifetime. There is however nothing wrong with them finding us, but the size also works as the problem for this.

(Pretty much only my thinking being written down here, not relevant to anything)

Dont doubt, they could be found tomrrow, they could be found a millenia from now .... the only certainty being the uncertainty of the matter! There is evidence that Mars once had water and possibly still has water at its frozen poles. A human mission to Mars is only 20-40 years away if not sooner. Who knows what will and can be found. Also Jupiter's frozen moon Europa has liquid water underneath its ice .... life may very well be there. We are sending a probe there within the next decade. So keep your fingers crossed!

Naft · #60 05-31-2011, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Future Raptor Ace

Dont doubt, they could be found tomrrow, they could be found a millenia from now .... the only certainty being the uncertainty of the matter! There is evidence that Mars once had water and possibly still has water at its frozen poles. A human mission to Mars is only 20-40 years away if not sooner. Who knows what will and can be found. Also Jupiter's frozen moon Europa has liquid water underneath its ice .... life may very well be there. We are sending a probe there within the next decade. So keep your fingers crossed!

I wouldn't trust Europa with life, but Titan. It has an atmosphere and there are liquid pools down there where amino acids can self-assemble. I don't think there is intelligent life, but I think that is the closest we'll get to alien life this decade.
I think we can terraform Mars to our liking, it'll be hard but I predict that within this century, Mars will be habitable by melting the polar caps where there is supposed to still be liquid water, and then creating an atmosphere (can't remember how and my book isn't near) that would create more greenhouse effect, causing it to warm up (and melt the water, if you were to do it in reverse order). I like Mars, but I think people think it's too unnecessary to go there to support NASA any more than the current budget. If we were however to develop a more efficient way to get us there without the extreme time it would take seeing as the distance is much greater than the distance between the moon and the Earth, then I could see it as possible by the time it is introduced. All I know is this planet is getting ruined by us, and we'll eventually need somewhere new to settle, and Mars looks very promising.