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#41
12-10-2019, 09:46 PM
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I just posted this in response to a Messenger post from Fall. I was going to leave it there, but it looks like I have to post it here now...
Not too long ago, I recommended to Ben that he make CleverCowboy and Bamagirl mods. He asked me at that time if I wanted to be made a mod again and I said no because I to tend to get very upset about things and say things I shouldn't say and I knew if something happened I was very upset with, I'd speak my mind and it wouldn't be pretty. I know Bamagirl personally. Me and her talk about things often outside of Alizee. Though her knowledge of Alizee isn't as vast as ours, like I said, I know her and know she's a woman of high values who I thought would bring those values to this forum. At that time, I mentioned me and CleverCowboy wanted to buy the server so we could make much needed changes to the forum. We both discussed how to do it and we said we'd split the cost of buying the server from Ben and whatever costs there would be in running the server. Ben was okay with that, but he said it would take time to clear some of his files off that server. Conversations about that and conversations about how Ray was running this forum, led us to speak on a regular basis. Though I'm not a mod, I'm in here just about every day. I can't see everything that goes on, but I'm often reporting in the mods forum things I see wrong and to Bamagirl and CC who I often communicate with anyways The big problem here is there is so little coming from Alizee. I'm so glad for her that the second baby she wanted is here. Now she has everything she wanted and deserves in life (or does she.....another subject). So though we're all happpy for her, the fans aren't here for the baby. They are here to see her on stage again in some form be it singing or acting or dancing. Bearing that in mind, it is so tough to keep up interest in the forum. You can only keep posting the same videos and pictures over and over again so many times. So in my mind, we can't be that strict with the rules. Ray was a mod in here not that long ago. When I spoke of good conversations that were going on and someone would end them, it was specifically he who I had in mind. A couple of times me and CC had good conversations going and Ray came along and say "Off topic".....gotta break it up and move it to who knows where? Ray was very popular with some of the younger members, but Ray kept all the conversations in chat where visitors to this forum can't see them.Probably 90% of the conversations were taking place in chat. He even made fun of me in my suggestions in my battle to change it back to the way it should be. In the end, he got upset and left which is too bad. He did bring a lot to this forum, but now that he's left, about 95% of the conversations take place in the forum where they should be instead of in chat. So MerciAlizee shows up and lays out the rules. I have a lot of respect for all he's done for this forum. He was always the voice of reason, especially with troublesome members like me, but he doesn't know the current state of the forum. We, you (Fall), me, CC, Bamagirl, are fighting on a daily basis to keep up enough interest to have this forum survive in the remote chance that something does come along. We can't go hard and fast by those rules. We have to use common sense and act, only when there is a need to act. We'll make mistakes....we'll correct them and we'll move on. Bottom line, our active mods need the flexibility to determine when something is right or something is wrong. When a mod thinks something is wrong and it has something to do with another mod, they need to communicate in private. After that, only then, should they bring it to a higher authority or maybe even discuss it in the open forum. Last edited by Scruffydog777; 12-10-2019 at 10:21 PM.. 
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#42
12-11-2019, 10:06 AM
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I had been out of town since last Friday with no internet, so I definitely have missed a lot. I am going to respond here to what has been posted lately. I have not thought about the content of my response here, which is rare for me because I tend to overthink everything.
It is my experience on this forum that threads go off-topic frequently and then tend to get back on track. I never had any issues with it. This thread was no different, and even though we have a "no religion, no politics" forum rule, the fact is that this rule can easily be violated, and has been violated. Religion and politics intertwine with everyday life in so many ways that it almost cannot be avoided. If somebody mentions "Jesus" or "Buddha", that is not violating the religion rule in my opinion. They are historical figures. If somebody mentions that a country is defined by its borders, like I did, that does not violate the politics rule in my opinion. The same goes for immigration, whether legal or illegal, as long as facts are stated. However, if a discussion turns to immigration policies, then it starts delving into dangerous territories that might start bickering in our forum. I have never wanted to over-police this forum and it has been my personal policy to let conversations flow as long as we are respectful to each other and Alizee and her loved ones. Disagreements can add a little spice. Time and time again our members disagree while discussing something and it passes and we move on and no hurt feelings. Now on to the responses I have earlier in this thread. There has been a story that the media circulated for a while that the way the US treats those crossing our southern border is similar to "concentration camps", and that was brought up by a member in this thread. The similarity was not started by the member, but echoed what had been the mantra of the media who is very hostile towards our sitting President. Getting a little personal here, I am am immigrant's son. Both my mother's and father's families immigrated to the U.S. thanks to the Displaced Persons Act of 1948. My parents did not know each other in the "old country" which is modern day Belarus, but each family had to endure having their villages razed by the Nazis and being shipped by train to Germany to labor in real concentration camps. They were not Jewish but that didn't mean they were treated differently. They just worked you until you died. I've heard all the stories and it was real hell. If it weren't for the American soldiers that liberated their camps, neither parent would have survived. I would have defended the US treatment of illegal immigrants no matter who was president because using the words "concentration camp" alludes to the atrocities of WW2. While by definition you can use it synonymous with "detention center" which would be the preferred term, the former term is used by the media for the sole purpose of tainting the public opinion of the current administration. I'm sure I fed the fire by my post saying the cages were started by the prior administration. While it is actually the case, I should have held my emotions in check but sometimes they get the best of me. And for the record, just in case anybody misunderstood what I said in an earlier post. I have absolutely nothing against the average Mexican person. During my decades living near Houston, I have had countless Mexican friends and acquaintances. They have helped shape the Texas culture, which is truly unique. It is true though that Americans are the favored targets of crime in Mexico. I don't think there is any revenge factor associated with it other than the illusion that Americans are likely to have more money than other tourists. If I offended anybody by my posts in this thread, let me assure you that it was not intentional.
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#43
12-11-2019, 02:35 PM
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Very well said by CleverCowboy. That's why he's a mod and I'm not. In the conversations that go on here, everything isn't black and white. There are a lot of gray areas. We can't go by the hard and fast rules MerciAlizee laid out for us. We have to use good judgement. We have to use common sense. This forum has been run very well of late by our 3 active mods. If there's an issue in here, let them work it out in private, then take action if any action needs to take place.
Edit: I just wanted to add a couple of things. I recently started a thread about Alizee holiday pictures and I mentioned in that post I wanted to name it Christmas pictures but with my experience here,I knew someone might get their knickers in a twist, so I made it about 'holiday pictures' and it shouldn't be that way. Everytime I go on vacation, whenever I pass a church, I stop in and say a few prayers for various things and in the Catholic church, they have these statues where you can buy a candle as an offering and say a prayer to various saints. This is a picture of one church I stopped at in Trieste. I usually get one for each of the various things I want to pray for. On this occasion, I bought six. One was for Alizee. I prayed that all would go well for her and the baby. Those who've been here a while have seen me post pictures of this type of thing before and they know as always, I place her candle at the front of the 'stage' as I refer to it. I didn't post it at the time because again, I was worried it would offend someone, after all, with what I usually say about it like what I said here can fall under 'religious discussion'. Is a picture like this permitted? If so.......why? In the black and white of the rules here, it's a violation! I'm sure Alizee would be deeply bothered by the fact that a fan mentioned her and what was at the time, her baby on the way, in his prayers. After all I've said in this thread, I'll have to go to confession.......Oooooooops!....Can't say that here. Candles.jpg Last edited by Scruffydog777; 12-11-2019 at 05:55 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doubleposts
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#44
12-11-2019, 07:11 PM
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I had no intent to set off all the pyrotechnics that my comments made, and, for that, I apologize to AAm. The last thing I want now is to get down in the mud and the blood to grapple with people I have a genuine fondness for. However, after the moderators clarified the rule against political discussion, they discussed politics, making some points I passionately disagree with. Now I demand a moment to have my say. After which I will happily leave the topic behind in the dust.
The point was made that the children are not being held in concentration camps. It’s true the children are not retained in Nazi styled death camps or slave camps, but they are being held in concentration camps somewhere between the Nazis camps and the facilities run to contain the Japanese in the USA during WWII. “At least eight children are known to have died in immigration custody since last year, after almost a decade in which no child reportedly died while in the custody of U.S. Customs and Border Protection.” One died of the flu just two days ago. He lay dead on the floor for four hours before the staff found him. The reason we know this is that security cameras recorded the boy’s death. The cages were indeed constructed under Obama, but as temporary containment facilities in which families were not separated. “Temporary” as in hours, not days, weeks, or months as they are currently being used. These cages have no facilities for overnight containment. They have benches with no backs to sit on and nothing more. The children in them have nothing to occupy themselves during the day and must sleep on the floor without mattresses or pillows. The conditions are torturous. When circumstances allow, the children are removed to privately run, for profit tent cities surrounded by barbed wire where they are kept indefinitely—in other words concentration camps. The logic for separating children from their parents is to terrorize foreigners from coming to the USA. The reason for locking up children I hear from my conservative friends (most of whom are Christians—for crying out loud) is that “Well, they broke the law, so . . .. We are talking about children so young that legally they cannot break the law. Also, it is not a violation of the law to enter the USA without a visa then apply for asylum. The USA has never separated children in-mass (by the thousands) from their parents before. When parents are abusive, yes, the government has separated families, but for the good of the children. In this instance, “for the good of the children” is not a consideration. There are numerous studies showing that “institutionalizing” children has negative lifelong impacts. There is no reason to separate families other than to purposely inflict cruelty as a political strategy. Trump’s policy is intentionally designed to inflict injury. The United States should be better than that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzZwca4rEWc https://www.esquire.com/news-politic...ilities-trump/ https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/23/o...nts-camps.html This video is not of an actual court scene. Because cameras are not allowed in the court, this video is a reenactment of what happens in court. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ztvPsJmIcU&t=8s Last edited by Shepherd; 12-12-2019 at 12:03 AM..
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#45
12-11-2019, 07:37 PM
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It's ironic how the discussion about the rule generated more quarrels than what the rule itself should have censored in order to prevent quarrels...
If you don't mind my saying, I think this is all a big misunderstanding. I don't know what has happened in the past, but I think that both Fall and Scruffydog are right. The problem is how everything was exposed. It is true that politics and religion are two delicate matters that almost always generate unhealthy discussions. For example, there is one of my closest friends who is... Let's say red; when we were in high school we used to talk about our political ideas a lot, but we always ended up arguing heavily. So we commonly decided that we would never speak together about our political opinions any more. The problem is that we also argue about sports and all "unimportant" stuff. He is irascible and I'm stubborn, so anything can be fuel for futile fights. I think this happens all the time with other people, too. But if you don't know well your interlocutor, you can't know what topics you should avoid and/or how you should say certain things. You may hit a nerve without knowing it. And I think that's is what happened here. Maybe it was just a excess of zeal by Fall and this might have "offended" Scruffydog for a thousands possible reasons. I also agree with Scruffydog about the "common sense" thing. Because, let's be honest, censorship is wrong, but without rules there is chaos. I like how things go here. I don't know anyone of you, but all the digressions I have read on this forum are good, because they are something that make members' personalities stand out. So on this forum I feel as though I'm at bar with all of you, speaking about what we love. That's what a forum was, thousands years ago. So I think that Fall just wanted to act before anything could go wrong. The same way Scruffydog wanted prevent the beginning of a new era, a new reign of censorship and terror, where everything people are told is just "off-topic!" MUAHAHAHHAHAH. Ok, no, sorry. Anyway, that's what I saw. I don't know what happened in the past among the members of this forum, it's just that, as I said, everything is a misunderstanding to me and none of you seem to have had bad intentions. Please, don't take this post as an offense, I may be wrong, but this is what I see from my perspective
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#46
12-12-2019, 01:37 AM
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#47
12-12-2019, 08:29 AM
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Maybe it's a good thing we air things out every so often. I think the members of this forum are much more civil than a few other forums I have been a member of in the past, and those were professional forums.
I'm still unclear what the first forum rule really means: 1. anything that would offend Alizée Since none of us really knows what offends Alizee, we just have to make our best judgement. We have talked about (and sometimes criticized) her tattoos, concert outfits, music, etc. We assume that Alizee does not wear her feelings on her shoulders and she probably doesn't. What is a no-brainer is that we do not insult or criticize anybody that is close to her, and I cannot think of one post where this has been done. All in all, this is a good forum. If our wishes come true and Alizee releases another album, this place will become very busy again, and moderating will be increasingly challenging. But until then, which may never happen, I'm going to keep focused on our girl. 
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#48
12-12-2019, 01:43 PM
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#49
12-12-2019, 02:10 PM
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No good deed goes unpunished?
Bamagirl is correct in saying that political or religious discussions are near unavoidable. In fact, there are so many tells in one's language and conversation that you don't need to be some kind of analyst to figure out their leanings or values.
The very fact that both Scruffy and CC felt the inclination to defend the current administration and policy tells you where they likely stand. Having "known them" in some fashion, over the last year or years, I already had some idea of where they stand. So place yourself in my shoes as a moderator when, as CC himself noted, a member uses the media's term of "concentration camp" to describe the ICE detention centers. And another asks if Trump is really that "inhumane." Consider also that Scruffy is self-admittedly hot tempered and has directed his temper at me on more than one occasion. I figured, I should probably break up this discussion before Scruffy explodes on said members (one of them being relatively new) for their comments. Unfortunately, while my actions prevented an issue with them, it was directed towards me. I wasn't trying to censor anyone, and I resent the implication. I also resent the implication that I don't approve of off topic conversations, when if that was the case, AAm would be the polar opposite of my happy place. It is not that I wanted to stamp out off topic conversation, I wanted to prevent a huge argument, and of course to remind everyone that political discussion is against forum rules.* All in all, I would agree that this was a misunderstanding of near cosmic proportions    * To further clarify, those are not simply Merci Alizée's rules, but ones laid out by Brad and Ben, founders and owners of the forum.
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#50
12-12-2019, 03:23 PM
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Here, we have a perfect example why the "No Politics Rule" was made and should be abided by. I agree, however, with Scruffy that the rule should not be dogmatize and enforced by an Inquisition. Subjects like politics and religion should be allowed, if delicately handled . . . like hot potatoes.
 Of course, by making the rule's edges fuzzy, we compound the moderators' headaches. God bless to all of you.  None of us came to this site to argue. During the years I've been an AAm member, I interacted with quite a few people who I've grown to like and admire, people who I count as friends. It would be tragic to lose that over an argument that neither of us has the power to change. Now, I would like to move on. Last edited by Shepherd; 12-12-2019 at 03:40 PM..
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