How can we welcome more women here & to Lili?

[FanDeAliFee]

Fans want to see Alizée's career continue and thrive, not the least for personal motives. For this to happen, Lili needs a persistent supply of listeners, especially those interested in buying her products. This includes people of all circumstances, nationalities, ages and genders. In this thread, we consider gender.

Alizée has more male fans than female fans. For example, currently Quantcast tentatively ("beta") <a href="http://www.quantcast.com/alizee-officiel.com/demographics">reports</a> that among French ("FR") visitors to Lili's <a href="http://alizee-officiel.com/">official Web site</a>, 58% are male and 42% are female.

This "gender gap" is of the same polarity and MUCH larger here at Alizée America. Is this an artifact of the way in which Lili became known in the USA? Remember, it is VERY hard for French singers to make sales in the USA, so we American fans are relatively few compared to those in some other countries, and our demographics might easily look rather different from those of Alizée's global fan base.

But there is also another possibility. Is this community less friendly to females than it might be? This may not be a matter of malice, but an unintended consequence of an overwhelmingly male community population. I am especially interested in the opinion of our female AAm members about this.

I have an idea for an experiment which the AAm Gods might like to entertain. What if one established two threads, one "Just for males" and the other "Just for females." Obviously an honor system would need apply, as one person could elect to enroll multiple identities at AAm, e.g. one a 19yo Swedish male, another a 37yo Canadian female, a third a 67yo Maltese female, and so on. But then most people might be much too lazy to play such games anyway. Does vBulletin support restricting thread access by user account attribute, like a gender bit?

Maybe special gender-specific threads are overkill. Perhaps what I should do is simply encourage our female members to Private Message among themselves, come to some common opinion, and then tell us "boys" here if we are being "bad" and how we might change. (For all I know, you have been doing that already, which may be why so few of you remain here long, or at least speak up often! )

I have hardly listened to all the AAm podcasts, but I don't remember hearing a single voice I deemed female. Curiously, the first person to answer a post I made (Karlalizee) is female, but it is very rare indeed when I encounter a post by someone I even think is female. I don't know the exact list of people who manage AAm, but has there ever been a female among them or invited to join them?

I am not trying to start trouble, but it would be a shame if by failing to make a simple change or two, the community at AAm is a third or more smaller than it need be. I'll be going now: I just realized I forgot to lower the seat the last time I used the AAm rest room!

[Deepwaters]

Perhaps it might also be a good idea simply to acknowledge that this is not, in fact, always a women-friendly place. I have winced sometimes at the crude, immature, vulgar comments that have been posted in certain threads. I don't want to call for more tight policing of the board; actually I find the rules that currently exist sometimes unnecessarily restrictive. Just for more awareness and an attempt at greater respect for half the human race.

The kind of comments I'm thinking of are these:

Giggling and finger-pointing over photos with nipples visible through the fabric of clothing.

Claims that a photo makes Alizée look like a penis, or like she has one. (Those left me bewildered; maybe a certain latent homosexuality emerging?)

Actually, doc, there have been a few times when YOU posted some things that I thought were a bit over the line, although at least yours were well-written. (I suspect it was the lure of the clever words themselves, too hard to resist -- I know that one well.)

The worst of it is that I have a feeling most of those posting things like this don't even understand why they're offensive. It's not that the posts have sexual content; there's nothing wrong with that per se. It's that they reduce a woman to an object to be pawed, or to sneak a peek at the naughty bits. If I were a woman browsing this thread, I would be reluctant to participate in the discussion because some of the same nasty-little-boy energy might be directed at me if I did.

And I'd be right. Remember the reception that Karla got when she posted some pictures of herself a while back? Karla's gorgeous, and those were great photos, so everyone should have clapped. There were so many ways to respond to that gesture in a positive and complimentary way. Say she's hot. Or, hell, ask her out for a date. (She's younger than my age limit or I might have. )

But instead we got -- vulgar comments about the size of her boobs, etc. Nasty little snips that tried to put her down. She hasn't posted any more photos of herself since then, and who can blame her? And it's our loss.

I would recommend an exercise for all of the prolific posters to this forum, especially those who are young and male. Go back over all of your own posts for the last month. For each one, think: if you were a woman and this was written about you, would you like to read it? Would you find it a compliment? Would it make you want to meet the guy who wrote it?

I've said before, all posts here should be made on the assumption that Alizée herself is going to read them. Odds are that isn't true, but every once in a while it will be true, and in some of those cases you might be very embarrassed. And even when she doesn't, other people will -- and sometimes you should be embarrassed.

So in part, I definitely think it's the posters here. Not all the time, and not everyone. But there are some decidedly woman-unfriendly posts that crop up with depressing regularity.

EDIT: LOL well, no sooner did I say that than Karla did post a new pic of herself. Damned good one, too. Bravo, girl!

[wasabi622]

Originally Posted by Deepwaters

The kind of comments I'm thinking of are these:

Giggling and finger-pointing over photos with nipples visible through the fabric of clothing.

Claims that a photo makes Alizée look like a penis, or like she has one. (Those left me bewildered; maybe a certain latent homosexuality emerging?)

Oh come on. What do you expect out of a bunch of teenagers? I mean, it's not like we're talking about them every other thread. If nipples were visible, guess what? Hey! They were visible, yay! Okay, on to the next picture so we can all warble on about how much we love Alizée.

As for the awkwardly bunched up pants picture... latent homosexuality? ...what? Where did that come from? The fact is, there was an inconveniently located bunched up part of her pants that was well, perfectly set up for such jokes.

And that's all it is, a joke. We point, giggle, then move on.

I see no harm in any of this. Though the comment about Karla was quite inappropriate, seeing as how that was accusatory and questioning her personally integrity.

[Deepwaters]

Originally Posted by wasabi622

Oh come on. What do you expect out of a bunch of teenagers?

That they commence the process of learning to be adults. Consider this a lesson.

If nipples were visible, guess what? Hey! They were visible, yay!

You're missing the point here. It's not that someone noticed her nipples were visible. It's that this was such a big deal. I don't know, maybe it's that you've never actually seen bare female flesh before, so something accidentally exposed is a whoop-de-do. Maybe this is another indictment of our silly cultural taboos against exposing women's nipples.

As for the awkwardly bunched up pants picture... latent homosexuality? ...what? Where did that come from?

When I find guys obsessed with penises, that's naturally the first thing that crosses my mind. Nothing wrong with it, of course. Be true to yourself.

The fact is, there was an inconveniently located bunched up part of her pants that was well, perfectly set up for such jokes.

And that's all it is, a joke. We point, giggle, then move on.

The fact is, such jokes are in poor taste and appealing only to little boys. As I said, it's time for you to start learning to be a grownup. If you want to share a silly and totally inappropriate joke like that, do it in private.

I see no harm in any of this.

As long as you can't see the harm, the problem will continue.

Though the comment about Karla was quite inappropriate, seeing as how that was accusatory and questioning her personally integrity.

Well, good. At least you can see that.

[wasabi622]

Deepwaters, have you ever been a kid before? Sounds like you were mature your entire life.

I'm not even twenty yet, I don't want to be full fledged grown up, I'll have no choice in the matter in a few years, so I think I'll enjoy being silly, immature, and carefree(well, not really..) for as long as I can.
There's a place to be mature, and on a fan forum, I think the bar can be lowered a bit. It's not like we're going to present this committee, it's just us hanging out and goofing off.

I don't see why we should all feel to need to be grown up about it.
We're not being insulting, anti-Semitic, derogatory, racist, homophobic, or sexist.
Maybe the jokes aren't always up to standard you wish they were, but that's just what happens on an online forum. Especially ones with a diverse group like this one.

[Deepwaters]

Originally Posted by wasabi622

I don't see why we should all feel to need to be grown up about it.
We're not being insulting,

Yes, you ARE.

Let me try again to explain this, specifically about the nipple business. I've seen an old photo of Alizée, which might be a fake but it didn't look fake. It was from late in the Gourmandises era. Anyway she had that short haircut, but looked at least 17. She was wearing a see-through top with nothing underneath, and her nipples were quite completely visible. (And every bit as yummy-looking as the rest of her.) (That I've seen.)

But the difference is, on that occasion (unless it's a fake), she intended to expose her nipples to view. Making cracks about it when, due to the way the lighting falls, a nipple shape unintentionally shows through the cloth -- that's like someone making jokes about you because you're photographed with your fly unzipped.

Can you understand the difference? It's a question of respect, that's all.

[VVVACCPLPNLY]

Doc, good point. You, too, deep. And Wasabi, I see your point, but do not entirely agree. As for your statements, deep, I did find a few quite disagreeable! I am a teenager (18), and have never made any sort of the comments you attribute to 'teenage boys'. Go ahead, go through all 440 some odd posts I have made. Also, I have never made a comment containing something other than 'cute', 'pretty', 'beautiful', words like that. I honestly do not think I have ever even used the word 'hot' to describe Alizée anywhere! I don't think she is hot, that word seems too common, barbaric. And when it comes to 'nipple' pictures, I refrain from even commenting. I have said before, I think very highly of Alizée, and do not even like the pictures of her in a bikini. Not because it showed too much skin, but it showed it in the complete wrong places. The JEAM outfit is fine with me, because it shows just some leg, and the top of her chest. To be continued, phone ram too small to finish point.

[Deepwaters]

Originally Posted by VVVACCPLPNLY

As for your statements, deep, I did find a few quite disagreeable! I am a teenager (18), and have never made any sort of the comments you attribute to 'teenage boys'.

Point taken. I shall try to refrain from stereotyping in the future.

[VVVACCPLPNLY]

There is a picture (17, 2001 I think) where she is wearing a see-through pink top with a bra underneath. The bra is really low, and shows a lot of cleavage. I do not particularly care for this picture. Not because I do not enjoy the sight of the female body, but because Alizée is not a woman I look to to see that kind of thing. I think her body is amazing, but I love her smile so much more. I would rather see her in long pants and a jacket with a beautiful smile, than in a see-through shirt with a low cut bra, and a bored look. I just appreciate her face more than her body. Maybe that is why I do not mind her new direction. I couldn't care less about 'nipple' pictures. Why bother? I have no chance to ever actually see it, so what would a picture count for? So, I don't care to see it. At all. In fact, I hope that if somehow I stumble across it, I am on my phone an can't see it anyways!

[wasabi622]

Originally Posted by Deepwaters

Yes, you ARE.

Let me try again to explain this, specifically about the nipple business. I've seen an old photo of Alizée, which might be a fake but it didn't look fake. It was from late in the Gourmandises era. Anyway she had that short haircut, but looked at least 17. She was wearing a see-through top with nothing underneath, and her nipples were quite completely visible. (And every bit as yummy-looking as the rest of her.) (That I've seen.)

But the difference is, on that occasion (unless it's a fake), she intended to expose her nipples to view. Making cracks about it when, due to the way the lighting falls, a nipple shape unintentionally shows through the cloth -- that's like someone making jokes about you because you're photographed with your fly unzipped.

Can you understand the difference? It's a question of respect, that's all.

I don't get why you're so caught up the nipple business. That happened once, and yet you're acting as if that's all we do here.

I don't remember me commenting about nipples, other than noting the fact that the picture in question was quite poorly photoshopped. I'm pretty sure the only thing I said about that picture was that it resembled Roman armor or something.

If you get a picture of me with my fly unzipped, or while I'm picking my nose with a weird expression, go for it. I don't mind joking around with it. But if you were to take those pictures and say that I was a unhygienic slob, then I would be offended, seeing as how that is no longer joking, but insulting.

I don't think we've quite said anything like that yet.