Does she have a deeper side?

[Un-rêve]

Originally Posted by Corsaire

I was just saying that Alizée could be all that you want her to be and still occasionally show some depth (if she is capable of it). Win-win situation for all of us. Don't you get that what you quoted is just me joking?

Hey no worries.. you do make a good point.

[Rev]

Originally Posted by Matevz91

...In my life I follow the metaphysical claim that everyone is born equally intelligent, or a somewhat stronger (and realistic?) claim, that for lack of intelligence in some areas there is always abundance of intelligence in other areas....

When they talk about intelligence, these days they actually think in terms of 7 intelligences (a simple google search will yield more info.). A typical IQ test only measures a couple of them.
<DL><DT>The seven are:<DT> 1. Linguistic <DT> 2. Logical-Mathematical. <DT> 3. Bodily-Kinesthetic <DT> 4. Spatial <DT> 5. Musical <DT> 6. Interpersonal <DT> 7. Intrapersonal</DT><DT> </DT><DT>By the way, I have also heard 9 mentioned. </DT></DL>

Originally Posted by Matevz91

...
Anyway, before I move to my conjecture about Alizée, I must first ask myself, am I intelligent? Judging by what some people in my life say....

What is the truth then, am I intelligent? ... There are those who say, that I don't have a soul, but they don't realize that I perceive spirituality as part of my life (here you have the answer to the question whether there is more to "reality" than what we see - yes there is). And lastly, there are those who think that I know everything and that I can do anything - they don't realized how flawed I am as a person and how little I really know, sometimes I get lost even at the most trivial things.

Of course you are intelligent, the question is: how intelligent, and compared to what? Also, the context is important. Obviously, someone high in Linguistic intelligence, but low in others, will not necessarily be thought of highly if the test is how well do you dance.

Once you move into spirituality the questions get a lot more interesting. For example, do you really exist or are you just a dream in a dreamers mind. The answer to this question might be more important to some than how smart the characters in the dream are.

Originally Posted by Matevz91

...
To sum it up, how people see me tells more about them than about myself..... How deep we see Alizée might say more about ourselves than about her.

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Matevz91

...
...Anyway, I have finally covered enough ground to present to you my conjecture about Alizée - that she is one of the most flexible and intelligent singers, out of whom a composer, who knows what he wants and who has a world (that is, "depth" - check out my definition some posts ago) behind his works, can create songs that can literally take the world. And I am not talking about taking the world in a commercial way, but in a way of the mind. I cannot prove that, of course, but I have this feeling, that her superficiality towers over others depths.
For those interested, I used some of the words of Ptolemy from the Stones movie Alexander the great still, my feeling stands, the feeling that in right hands, she can do wonders...

So, she is a piece of top quality clay to be molded. Given to the right sculptor, a masterpiece can be the result.

[Marka]

I was in the past quite interested into what intelligence really is and during that period I read quite a bit on such topics (although of course far from enough to say anything substantial).
Since then I have formed the oppinion that we are too much concentrated into how intelligent someone is and how do we compare to them instead of focusing on how to cooperate with others. Inteligence of one man means hardly anything to humanity as a whole, if he doesn't cooperate with others. Diversity in intelligences may be one of our best tools (of humanity).

That is at least what I think.

[Corsaire]

Matevz, there might be lots to be said as a follow up to your latest posts (including some references to the nature versus nurture topic which SpanishFan has alluded to a few days ago) but, let me refocus the discussion so to return to the thread’s subject.

I would say that one has to remain cautious about conjectures. “Does Alizée have a deeper side?” We do not have all the necessary data regarding this topic because no one here actually know her personally, so, I guess, we only can analyse the available data and apply Occam’s razor (find the simplest conclusion that requires the least amount of assumptions). There could be thousands of reasons why Alizée is superficial while she is sharing with her fans. One explanation could be that she has been abducted by aliens and she was programmed to be superficial with her fans. This could be the real explanation for her behaviour, but is it the most likely one? If we stay in a realm of the more plausible explanations, the reasons that have been put forward in this thread to explain her lack of depth are:

- She is too shy and/or too private
But she is sharing plenty of personal stuff, more than all the artists I follow, who are way deeper than she is.

- Facebook and Twitter only allow superficiality
But she is equally superficial on stage, in interviews, TV shows...

- She only wants to show her “good” and “fun” side to her fans
But she is happy to share with her fans her next album which will be more gloomy and profound (her saying).

- She knows that being deeper would really be bad for her career
So, she cannot refer to an interesting book she has read or post about a painter or a theater play she likes because some of her fans would be enraged and the media would shred her to pieces!?!?

- She is so deep that the only way she has found to survive is to be shallow
Rev, are you really actually proposing this as an explanation for her shallowness?

The fact is that Alizée has never really shown any clear evidence of depth whatsoever and all the reasons that have so far been proposed to explain why she would hide a deeper side don’t seem to be likely plausible. Until proven otherwise, the most probable explanation is that Alizée is indeed, rather shallow. This does not mean that I am right in my assessment ; it just means that to reject that explanation and prefer another one, one has to add speculations to the available data. If further evidence is provided, the conclusion might be modified, but for now, myself, I cannot conclude otherwise.

[Chuck]

À Corsaire,

Your conclusion, "Until proven otherwise, the most probable explanation is that Alizée is indeed, rather shallow...." bothers me a teeny bit. I mean: why do you even worry? Just listen to some of her music, you crazy Canuck!

Sure, she's no Marcel Proust, nor is she Jean-Paul Sartre, and she's not even Simone de Beauvoir -- but none of them ever invented the JEAM dance, did they?

On the other hand, Alizée is a caring and compassionate entertainer, one who does a lot of work for charitable causes, including us (esp. if she gives us another autograph session with Scruffydog!)

Musically, no, she doesn't write her own material or play an instrument like Taylor Swift or a lot of other competitors. But she knows what she does well, and she does that very, very well. With grace, with style, and with integrity.

I really like the fact that "5" is billed as "chansons françaises", not "pop" or any other genre. We've heard that this album is a return to her roots, and so far, I've been hearing not just Alizée's roots, but the roots of French music in general - all the way back to Mistinguett, Edith Piaf, Jacques Brel, Serge Gainesbourg, and probably thousands of other influences. Throughout the 80's and 90's, most French pop stars tried so hard to sound "American" or "English" that the French musical tradition almost became totally lost. I like the fact that it's still thriving anyway! (Which may be more than we can say about Rock.)

Whew! Okay, back on topic here, I guess I'm saying that as a modern French musician, I think Alizée shows her depth in making the choices she makes and doing what she does, the way she does it.

Again, she not be a major writer or philosopher, but I'm still pretty certain that Mlle. Jacotey is the best damn Alizée the world has ever seen.

Corsaire, if you want to be a fan of somebody "deep", maybe you should be checking out Patti Smith?

[Un-rêve]

Originally Posted by Corsaire

The fact is that Alizée has never really shown any clear evidence of depth whatsoever and all the reasons that have so far been proposed to explain why she would hide a deeper side don’t seem to be likely plausible. Until proven otherwise, the most probable explanation is that Alizée is indeed, rather shallow. This does not mean that I am right in my assessment ; it just means that to reject that explanation and prefer another one, one has to add speculations to the available data. If further evidence is provided, the conclusion might be modified, but for now, myself, I cannot conclude otherwise.

Well UEDS was a pretty deep album imo.. especially this song.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Y1gj_1ZfELw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Anyway some official photos are in this vid too and I still can't work out why she decided to portray herself as dead ( check out the 0:50 minute mark ) in one of them. I'm sure some will relate it to Edie Sedgewick, but I myself think it goes deeper than that and there's other photo's here which can be seen in the last 3rd of the video that have me mystified too.. but what's your impression of them?

[le chat des Etats]

Interesting thread, many comments (not all) focus on whether she is bright; I am reminded of a quote:

When I was young, I admired clever people. Now that I am old, I admire kind people. - Abraham Heschel

I'm not that old, but I find this applies to me more and more. Alizée seems to show a depth of kindness. For just one example of her behavior over time, look at how many shots she has with random fans on her posts compared to other stars. She seems to take a great deal of time with people, when most would be happy if she scribbled an autograph or simply smiled and noticed them for a second. There are other areas she has shown caring, of course.

As to how smart she is, without knowing her personally, it is difficult to say. I think there is evidence that she is sharp, but she does not go out of her way to show it off. Given that the bulk of her work-and certainly her most commercially successful work thus far-is pop music, it may be useful to remember that a robust intellect is not really what most pop fans are looking for in a star, so displaying intelligence may not be a smart marketing angle, so to speak. (No offense to pop fans, I know many are quite smart)

[Corsaire]

Originally Posted by Un-rêve

Well UEDS was a pretty deep album imo.. especially this song.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Y1gj_1ZfELw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Anyway some official photos are in this vid too and I still can't work out why she decided to portray herself as dead ( check out the 0:50 minute mark ) in one of them. I'm sure some will relate it to Edie Sedgewick, but I myself think it goes deeper than that and there's other photo's here which can be seen in the last 3rd of the video that have me mystified too.. but what's your impression of them?

Yes, UEDS is a deeper album and I was happy to see her go in that direction. But, it is the album that is deeper, it might have little to do with Alizée, the person. Just like Alizée later distanced herself from some of the themes of the LB/MF years, maybe the depth of UEDS has little to do with Alizée’s personality. I do not think an album content is an indication of a singer personality, especially if he/she doesn’t write the lyrics or compose the music.

Concerning the video, I really like Mes fantômes, but here again, how much of Alizée is really in that song? As for the pictures of the UEDS era (like those included in the video), I find them interesting without really seeing much meaning into them, besides a reference to fashion modeling and, I suppose, to Edie Sedgwick and The Factory. Why do you think it goes deeper? Could you elaborate, that would be interesting?

@ Chuck, I do listen to her music from time to time, it is just not what attracted me to her in the first place and it is not why I keep following her career. And don’t give me that “she doesn’t have to be a philosopher” non-sense . You know what I am saying here, I just want her to show a little depth, that’s all. Did I mention that already...

[Marka]

Originally Posted by le chat des Etats

Interesting thread, many comments (not all) focus on whether she is bright; I am reminded of a quote:

When I was young, I admired clever people. Now that I am old, I admire kind people. - Abraham Heschel

I'm not that old, but I find this applies to me more and more. Alizée seems to show a depth of kindness. For just one example of her behavior over time, look at how many shots she has with random fans on her posts compared to other stars. She seems to take a great deal of time with people, when most would be happy if she scribbled an autograph or simply smiled and noticed them for a second. There are other areas she has shown caring, of course.

As to how smart she is, without knowing her personally, it is difficult to say. I think there is evidence that she is sharp, but she does not go out of her way to show it off. Given that the bulk of her work-and certainly her most commercially successful work thus far-is pop music, it may be useful to remember that a robust intellect is not really what most pop fans are looking for in a star, so displaying intelligence may not be a smart marketing angle, so to speak. (No offense to pop fans, I know many are quite smart)

After some thought, you are correct. She is very kind and this one of the things I really like on her. Though, Alizée is a celebrity and because of that she has a great influence over those who follow her. Remember JEAM - talking about masturbation - this is one of the best things from Alizée overall, if you ask me, making people (at least those who bother enoguh to actually understand the song) go over stereotypes and accept their sexuality. Being kind to her fans, supporting charity (which is, after all, just another capitalist sport, and yes, I do give my money to charity from time to time), that is all fine and dandy, but the best thing that she can do to those who care enough to follow her is that she (subtly or not) makes them accept themselves and to encourage them to actually make something out of their lives (instead of just the ordinary "be happy" and "follow your dreams" bullshit we normally get from our celebrities).

That means being clever to me when it comes to Alizée.

[Un-rêve]

Originally Posted by Corsaire

Why do you think it goes deeper? Could you elaborate, that would be interesting?

Well I believe there's more to Alizée than meets the eye and although she might not write her own lyrics she has always put her own ideas foward when it's come to her songs.. anyway it feels like I'm beating a dead horse here.