Une Enfant du Siècle lyrics

[User22]

Originally Posted by CFHollister

I think they could use polishing before being posted to the database (see my post below). Speaking of the database, some of the ones already there need work too. I was scanning over them the other day and finding english grammar errors (I particularly remember some issues with have/has agreement).

I definitely should skim over them and originally I just wanted them to be translations where they could get the point across quite well but I will go back in and change the grammatical errors...And thanks for the update on the UEDS trans

[Sir Wood]

The thing with translations is that everyone has their own interpretation. That is why alizee-reflections.net displays 3 formats:

1. Original lyrics
2. Literal transations
3. Complimentry interpretation

When I look at it, I tend to try to keep to the literal sense but not word for word. e.g. Eden Eden... faucons can mean falcons or hawks. Roman prefer "hawks" and I "falcons" in the translation but in all essence it means birds of prey. At least that is how I see that passage.

(I need to find time to look at some of the other translations. LOL )

[CFHollister]

Before it get's bumped off the first page, no comments on my ideas on the translation

[Criss_pl]

Originally Posted by CFHollister

Notes:
1) I think it's important to preserve what's called present perfect tense/aspect (whatever it's called in french) that is present in the original: J'ai [past participle] = I have (I've) [past participle]

Well, Passe compose originally corresponds to perfect tense, but nowadays it's mainly used to express finished actions, so I decided to use Simple Past instead of Perfect. It seems to me that all actions mentioned in song are finished and "closed", since near the end she says "without you" in present tense, so now he is gone and everything what she did before is now unimportant.
But it's just the thing of interpretation. I think that, you think differently

Originally Posted by CFHollister

2) English retains the vestiges of the genitive case (the possessive, [noun]'s) while french has pretty much totally discarded it (except in possessive pronouns), using the prepositional construction "de [noun]" instead. This has the same denotation as the english equivalent "of [noun]" but the connotation in english between the two is usually off. Here I opted for the genitive construction which I think is more natural.

It was in my first translation, so I probably just go back to it.

Originally Posted by CFHollister

3) French usually retains definite articles on abstract nouns where english almost always deleted the definite articles on abstract nouns (though not 100% of the time, often for emphasis). but more often than not "la vie" should be rendered as "life" (not "the life").

I give up when it comes to define articles between French and English But I agree with you, "The life" sounds not so good.

Originally Posted by CFHollister

4) I know I got a little loose mixing the literal and interpreting the line. But I think these renderings better capture the meaning in english even if it's traveled a good distance from the original in french. I also think the brevity (fewer words used) serves the impact of the line better.

I went into more literal route, just issue of one's interpretation

Originally Posted by CFHollister

5) I like keeping "fait" closer to the literal in english "done" because it retains the same pattern in english when we talk about menial chores; "I did the laundry," "I did the dishes." I think this retains the intent of the line; that she's done all the little menial things for (him) as well.

It strictly refers to point 1 "I did" or "I've done"

Originally Posted by CFHollister

6) Here's a very English english (as opposed to American) expression which I really like here. "there's not but a [noun]" translates more directly into American english as "there isn't even a [noun". I just this this cadence works better in english and also preserves the placement of un bruit/a sound at the end of the phrase, which I also like.

If it's really, really English I like it

Originally Posted by CFHollister

7) I think "noise" carries a connotation of a sound that it somehow out of place. For example, say you're watching TV with a friend (the volume is on) and your friend suddenly asks "Do you hear a noise?"... the emphasis is on a sound that is somehow out of place. but if he had instead asked "Do you hear a sound?" the question now seems a little strange; of course you hear a sound, the TV is on. Since the emphasis of the line seems to be on the total silence of the garden, the absence of sound, rather than just the absence of unwanted or out of place noises.

Yes, agree, "noise" is too 'loud' word here. Even a silent sound breaks the absolute silence in the winter garden

Originally Posted by CFHollister

8) In my dictionary these words also came up for vacille and succombe, respectively. I think the imagery of this rendering is more powerful and beatiful... conjuring the image of one's internal flame being snuffed out, rather than just a staggering person... more e representation of an internal death than an external one.

There is a lot of possibilities here, but I had to decide put something and chosen those. Again, it's the think of interpreter

Overall, everyone has its own thoughts on particular song, so it's hard to make an absolutely definitive translation of a song.

[CFHollister]

Thanks for replying to my suggestions. You're right, many of them are differences in interpretation which I think help preserve more of the emotional impact of the song or to take off the edges that make the translated text sound like a translation.

However, the one major thing that I think is important for "correctness" is retaining the tense of the original. What you call the passé composé (J'ai [past particple]) corresponds to the english present perfect (I've [past participle]). I think this not only a more direct literal translation but is also important in retaining the voice of the original... i.e. she seems to be listing all the things she's done for him not all the things she does or is doing (since if you were to translate the english version with the verbs changed to simple present to french, you now allow verbs to take on the connotation of the english present continuous since french does not have a construction for this tense and just uses the simple present).

[Roman]

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À cœur fendre

I will make my notes in green amongst yours.

Originally Posted by CFHollister

Notes:
1) I think it's important to preserve what's called present perfect tense - well, I don't really know why you think that's important. It's a fairly minor issue in English and the French use it quite indiscriminately. It's not like anyone is going to insist on using the passé simple instead. But it does sound at least as good your way. I think it's more about that in this case. I'm changing mine.

2) English retains bla bla bla. Yeah, it's again just about what sounds better not that the meaning is changed at all, but especially for polishing up an "official" AAm translation, I'll agree both of your changes here sound better.

3) The sky is black
Life is dark
Yeah, I'm changing mine to this. Just like it better.

4) ...these renderings better capture the meaning in english even if it's traveled a good distance from the original in french. I also think the brevity (fewer words used) serves the impact of the line better. I said it the way I did to explain and show the connection between the two parts of the song, the two sets of lyrics, but I see a translation on WR of "fendre le cœur à qn" as "to break sb's heart". Again, I think I will change it and just note in the footnotes the relationship. *2 'Il gèle a pierre fendre' literally means "It's freezing (enough) to split stone" *4 It's a play on the common phrase from *2 but means heart break obviously.

5) I like keeping "fait" closer to the literal in english "done" ... Yeah, I should have said that too and then in the footnote one can mention the interpretation * "done" probably means clean just as we might say in English. But it could mean something else, some other chore related to the windows. One gets the point either way.

6) Here's a very English english (as opposed to American) expression which I really like here. "there's not but a [noun]" translates more directly into American english as "there isn't even a [noun". I just this this cadence works better in english and also preserves the placement of un bruit/a sound at the end of the phrase, which I also like. I disagree. In American English "there's not but a sound in the garden," means the only thing in the garden is a sound. The French means that there was some noise, but now there isn't. Those are two different things. "There is not but a sound" makes no sense to me and would translate in my mind as "Il n'y a qu'un bruit..." in any case. This could be, "There is no longer noise/[a sound] in the winter garden." however.

7) I think that noise also carries the connotation of loud sound that is unwanted rather than necessarily strange or out of place. The jardin may have been busy with people and things going on--there was activity and "noise" there, but now that it's winter, it's silent. By the way, jardin also just means "yard", not necessarily garden as we would think of it, though here it is jardin d'hiver and besides that being the title of several songs (which one could investigate for possible relevance) it seems to refer in particular to an enclosed area with windows http://www.linternaute.com/femmes/de...ver-409417.jpg (if that helps at all).

8) In my dictionary these words also came up for vacille and succombe, respectively. I think the imagery of this rendering is more powerful and beatiful... conjuring the image of one's internal flame being snuffed out, rather than just a staggering person... more e representation of an internal death than an external one. Well, and your version is more easily understandable anyway. I'll change mine.

Unfortunately I agree that the last time I looked (year ago?), even 7 to 10 year old songs haven't been translated all that well and I don't know if there is any translation for Toc De Mac.
And I do a lot of commenting in my footnotes, but indeed I think there is a difference between interpretation and translation. Especially since this album is supposed to follow the thread of a story, I'd like to at some point go through and add more interpretation to all of this (sorry I never got around to it with Décollage). Looking at À cœur fendre for example, I really wonder how this fits with the life of Edie and the rest of the album. It seems kind of generic in that sense. It may simply be that. It's really hard to tell. I wish they had put more into talking about all of this and the life in the "Roman", but then whatever they say about the album, they are songs after all and will be enjoyed and interpreted as any art would.

[Fèvier]

Originally Posted by Roman

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À cœur fendre

I will make my notes in green amongst yours.
Unfortunately I agree that the last time I looked (year ago?), even 7 to 10 year old songs haven't been translated all that well and I don't know if there is any translation for Toc De Mac.
And I do a lot of commenting in my footnotes, but indeed I think there is a difference between interpretation and translation. Especially since this album is supposed to follow the thread of a story, I'd like to at some point go through and add more interpretation to all of this (sorry I never got around to it with Décollage). Looking at À cœur fendre for example, I really wonder how this fits with the life of Edie and the rest of the album. It seems kind of generic in that sense. It may simply be that. It's really hard to tell. I wish they had put more into talking about all of this and the life in the "Roman", but then whatever they say about the album, they are songs after all and will be enjoyed and interpreted as any art would.

well I don't know French so I can't help with translating but as for any translation for Toc De Mac, there is this website:
http://alizee-reflections.net/toc_de_mac.html

[CFHollister]

Roman:

Glad I could contribute. I think your comments are pretty accurate. I tried looking for your version, and scanning through the thread I didn't see it. Could you repost it with those contributions from my version that you incorporated so that I can see the consolidated version?

[User22]

Yah Roman how have you not found Toc De Mac translated? Everyone and their dog has seen it haha. But yah....I'm sorry to say I'm not interested in the story of this album....I just love her melodious voice

[Roman]

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Factory Girl

Ok, my favorite song i think. Finally I get to it. I will put changes in red.
The lyrics are not as endearing as in various other songs unfortunately, but the sound of the song is what has made me like it the most and ultimately that's what counts, right? (especially for a non-native speaker)

It's the end of the ballad
For lovable teen
Alone facing the Hasselblad *1
Split from bottom to top *2

Lifeless, submissive
Like a toy soldier *3
Scrutinized up and down *4
Three-quarter profile

Factory Girl
On the mirror's edge
Factory Girl
All the colors of darkness *5

It's the plunge into the abyss
Of a young bird of prey
Obedient to the laws of silver
Film, which wanes *6

Seen from above it's sublime
No, nothing disappoints you
There is nothing but more glamour
In the plunge into the abyss

Factory girl
Last drama, last scene
Factory girl
It's hardly any trouble

Factory Girl
We will resume tomorrow
Factory Girl
Until the end of ends of end of ends of ends

*1 Hasselblad is a brand of camera, in this line we also know that we are speaking of a female because of the French gender markers on words
*2 Not sure what this means—something about her clothing?
*3 There are various uses of this term. I'm not exactly sure, but it just seems to mean like a doll or toy posed.
*4 I use this translation because it is more of a natural phrase in English, but the original may indeed also imply something of treating her like an inanimate object (scanning an item at the grocery store comes to mind because of the Google translation: scanned back and forth)
*5 noir can be black or dark. I think it is taking the meaning of possibly both with an overtone of "dark things", negativity.
*6 previously traditional film which is going out of style

Oh yeah and by the way Sir Wood, on IMDB, the French title for Black Hawk Down is La chute du faucon noir; so, IN YOUR FACE! LOL just kidding! I know, now I'm asking for it.