How Degrading...

[Edcognito]

Originally Posted by OGRE

Ed you said:

".....where that just isn't a necessary part of my makeup".

And I replied (yes it's from Hey Amigo):

"Et d'un amour, sans maquillage" (A love without makeup). I was taking your words and weaving it into an Alizéeism. The sex part was not a part of your makeup (in the attribute sense), which was a similar concept in the song since it involved a prostitute and the desire for love without makeup (in the literal sense, but metaphorically meaning a desire for true love and not just sex).

I was tempted to throw another Alizéeism into the mix, from the same song, spun off your Navy career:

Et sur son dos, un tatouage.
And on his back, a tattoo. (I believe the context is feminine in the song)

Because we know all Navy men have tattoos.

As for the song itself, the En Concert version is amazing. Fantastic choreography. YouTube doesn't do it justice, but if you don't have DvD, it's better than nothing. If you can get DvD quality...watch it. Some of the best action closeups of Alizée's face you'll find anywhere.

Thankyou Ogre, that was quite apropo! As for your second part, you should have thrown it in, i do (indeed!) have a tatoo!


Ed

[El Cid de Compeador]

Originally Posted by OGRE

Nope.



Nope.



You hit it on the "shes beautiful" note. That's all you need. Art can be provocative. Art can be sensual. Art can be sexy. And it doesn't have to be bad. Alizée is a walking art museum. A museum full of wonderful beautiful art and song. Just enjoy the art.

By the way, when it come to the JEAM dance, the art I focus on is the eyes and smile. I see so many entertainers have to fake smiles. I can tell. That's a genuine real smile from someone really enjoying doing what they're doing.

Eh, quite honestly, I have to agree with Mr. Ogre. She IS a walking art museum.

I hadn't even SEEN the MV for JEAM until y'all mentioned it. I was merely a Project Playlist junky checking out an artist that a friend recommended. Quite honestly, the MV matters... not very much in comparison with the actual song, and as Ogre said, her facial expression. So full of life, exuberance, and very happeh.

The true mood, her and her opinion can be shown through her expression. Of course, she could have a politician's face and be good at masking emotions.

This has been a very jumbled, unorganized opinion from Trevor.

[Rev]

By the way, when it come to the JEAM dance, the art I focus on is the eyes and smile. I see so many entertainers have to fake smiles. I can tell. That's a genuine real smile from someone really enjoying doing what they're doing.

I have a question for you, does Mylene have real or a fake smile in this video of Désenchantée?

[Hylas1896]

I haven't posted much in this thread, or on this site for that matter, but I think the main point here is this.

The main problem is that -people- degrade Alizée, not that -the dance- degrades Alizée. Think of the jerks on YouTube.

Now certain types of dancing tends to bring out more of the degrading side of people, but that doesn't mean the dance necessarily 'asks for it.' The fault for degradation lies in the degrader, the viewer. As for the nature of the dance itself, that is for Alizée to worry about, and we can only guess.

Hylas1896

[Killian]

Originally Posted by Hylas1896

I haven't posted much in this thread, or on this site for that matter, but I think the main point here is this.

The main problem is that -people- degrade Alizée, not that -the dance- degrades Alizée. Think of the jerks on YouTube.

Now certain types of dancing tends to bring out more of the degrading side of people, but that doesn't mean the dance necessarily 'asks for it.' The fault for degradation lies in the degrader, the viewer. As for the nature of the dance itself, that is for Alizée to worry about, and we can only guess.

Hylas1896

That is true to an extent. A person may degrade something that is beautiful and meaning, such as Alizée, and therefore, become a degrader. But in reality, if the original content isn't degrading, than the only person being let down is the person who views it as such, as they don't have the sense to see beyond their blind opinions and look at what is underneath. They are allowing ignorance to distort their view of the artform. I mean if a person views the Venus de Milo as degrading to women does that make it so? Of course not, because it wasn't intended to do so. The same is true for Alizée. If people choose to believe that the content is degrading, they are misleading themselves. She was expressing herself in a way that was playful and sexy, perhaps a representation of her personality, and as such isn't degrading, regardless of those who wish to view it as such.

Another way to look at it is view the other end of the spectrum. If somthing is degrading, such as pornography (sorry if thats too extreme), but someone wishes to view it as a beautiful and respectful artform, do they become a redeemer? No, they don't, because the way they view it does not alter the reality of the situation...

[El Cid de Compeador]

How about this? Enjoy the music. Anyone who wants to be a killjoy can go stuff themselves.

[Youpidou1]

I knew when I first saw the JEAM video over the summer that this beautiful goddess was beautiful and had more than a great body. I myself don't EVER EVER EVER say anything degrading about someone and their image. But I was thinking to myself why would she go out in such an outfit that shows that much. I thought it was kind of wrong and then I looked up her old songs and then I found Moi Lolita and that seemed to put everything in its place. And thats where I began to listen to her songs and watch her videos, they just suck me in everytime. But everyone must understand that there are people in this world that look beyond the body and look inside to the body for a great heart, personality, and a sense of humor. Then there are the occasional no brain idiots who say degrading things lest do they know about who is watching and is saying something about them because they didn't like the comment. Besides, if Alizée was uncomfortable or wasn't happy with the costume, don't you think that she would say something? I would but then again in the interview from Italy, she says "she plays a role like in the movies." Her image? I suppose, degrading/and her feelings about that dance? We will not know until she tells us. I hope she will tell us. This is boggling my mind as well. Good luck everyone. And I can't wait to see more peoples opinions about this subject

[Hylas1896]

Originally Posted by Killian

But in reality, if the original content isn't degrading, than the only person being let down is the person who views it as such, as they don't have the sense to see beyond their blind opinions and look at what is underneath.

Right... most anyone has experienced being degraded by others when they weren't themselves doing or being anything degrading. When this happens we all know who is at fault. Unfortunately, people can choose to degrade anything.

Another way to look at it is view the other end of the spectrum. If somthing is degrading, such as pornography (sorry if thats too extreme), but someone wishes to view it as a beautiful and respectful artform, do they become a redeemer? No, they don't, because the way they view it does not alter the reality of the situation...

Comment: There are certainly some things, such as pornography, which invite degradation. Regardless, this gives no excuse to accept that invitation. Now even when things are degrading in the absolute sense, as you say, responsibility remains with the viewer. It certainly never solely rests with the 'actor'. Why? The reason why a particular person does something degrading, whether it be out of coercion, for popularity, or in absolute free will is irrelevant as far as the viewers responsibility is concerned. The actors responsibility is ultimately unknown and often beyond the sphere of the viewers influence.

Sometimes avoiding degradation means avoiding viewing certain things completely, but most often it is in avoiding the automatic magnification and obsession with the degrading, whether real, imagine, or nonexistent.

Back to Alizée:

This is what truly makes me angry about the YouTube pricks... their desire to magnify and relish in degradation, real or imagined. It's practically a goal, because apparently for them wonderful is not enough.

Hylas

[Capn]

Originally Posted by Killian

That is true to an extent. A person may degrade something that is beautiful and meaning, such as Alizée, and therefore, become a degrader. But in reality, if the original content isn't degrading, than the only person being let down is the person who views it as such, as they don't have the sense to see beyond their blind opinions and look at what is underneath. They are allowing ignorance to distort their view of the artform. I mean if a person views the Venus de Milo as degrading to women does that make it so? Of course not, because it wasn't intended to do so. The same is true for Alizée. If people choose to believe that the content is degrading, they are misleading themselves. She was expressing herself in a way that was playful and sexy, perhaps a representation of her personality, and as such isn't degrading, regardless of those who wish to view it as such.

Another way to look at it is view the other end of the spectrum. If somthing is degrading, such as pornography (sorry if thats too extreme), but someone wishes to view it as a beautiful and respectful artform, do they become a redeemer? No, they don't, because the way they view it does not alter the reality of the situation...

You are taking a double stance on this topic. You argue that if someone looks at something as if it is degrading but it wasn't intended to be than it still isn't. Next you claim pornography is degrading regardless of how someone may view it but that is suggesting that the person who made it intended it to be. This can't be decided by you if you ask many porn stars honestly admit to enjoying their jobs and many porn stars consider what they do as artistic as films so you really shouldn't jump to conclusions based on YOUR opinion compared to the people directly involved.

[Deepwaters]

There is a difference between pornography and erotica. Some of the stuff you find on the web that's called porn, is actually erotica. A lot of it, though, really is porn. How do you tell the difference?

If someone is called an insulting name, like "slut," it's porn. If someone is reduced to a piece of meat, it's porn. If someone is treated with contempt, it's porn. The inclusion of sex doesn't make something pornography, but the degrading of sex and its reduction to nothing but a "biological necessity" -- or a form of humiliation and control -- does.

Alizée has of course never done even mild porn and I'm sure she never will. But the JEAM dance is mild erotica. The song Gourmandises is also erotica, and her video for it is, too. It's a question in my mind whether she'll continue doing that sort of thing now, without Mylène (who's own work features a LOT of erotica) as her lyricist. But she certainly did in the past, and it wasn't, in my opinion, degrading in the least.