Expections of her return

[DJ_Greg]

Originally Posted by Deepwaters

Two posters have assumed that. Is it a reasonable assumption in terms of European conventions? Especially given that 1) she was a minor through most of this time, and 2) her name was plastered all over the albums, and how much more credit can one have than that?

Her name being on the album has nothing to do with her legal ownership (or lack thereof) of the lyrics in those songs.

Put another way, if she participated in the writing process, then she has a legal right to be credited for that. If that right was denied to her, then she has grounds for a lawsuit. Since we're not hearing about Alizée suing Mylene, it's very unlikely she had any hand in writing those songs.

[Roman]

Originally Posted by Deepwaters

...Polish ghetto under Nazi occupation?...

Désenchanté

Originally Posted by Deepwaters

...Alizée's songs could almost be written by completely different people. I know Laurent and Mylène DID write them, but they are so different from Mylène's own that it's clear to me there's a different influence at work...

Ok, I don't know why I'm going to enjoin this speculation fest. I haven't even been around long, but what the hey. For the sake of argument, I'll point out that it is Mylène and Laurent who started this whole thing. It was their little experiment of picking up a fresh new talent and a young girl. I don't know who's idea it was, but assuming it is something that Mylène or both of them wanted to do, I think that it is something different that they did want to express that Mylène couldn't do herself. Also, I haven't gotten the impression that much of the music was influenced by anyone other than Laurent himself, though I remember from that JEAM performance interview, Lili said that she asked for more guitar and drums in the second album because she likes to dance. -great choice. After having both albums for several weeks now and being a fan for a few months, I think overall I like the second album better. Take 'Hey, Amigo' for instance. I love that song and I love the way the music starts out. Ok, getting off on a tangent. What I meant to say was that I agree with the statement by MiamMiam. Those shots of Mylène/Alizée clothing shows that as for official attire Mylène seems to have laid it out.

Originally Posted by Deepwaters

...I wouldn't want to be the one to try to push Alizée around or make her do something she didn't want to do. My feeling is that wouldn't pay off well...

Ok, I suppose your point is that if Alizée was not telling the truth, that could be considered pushing her around (coersion?). Anyway, to further my point, I'll try to characterize it this way: when Alizée started off with M&L, they were huge stars in their own right and experienced and resourceful adults. They came down as from on high and chose Alizée who was very lucky to be chosen. It's sort of hard to judge her feelings about that time from interviews, but I tend to think she was just thrilled to be chosen and quite happy to do what M&L wanted her to do. They helped make her into a huge star, something she had been training for for years (though she apparently did not really expect it to happen that way. who would?). From what Alizée has said, it sounds like they treated her very well. It's hard to look at that with scepticism. I have no reason to believe that anything she said was not true - warning her what her future would be like and the type of advice Alizée said that Mylène gave her.
Having said all that, I must make sure to point out that if it had not been Alizée herself, I'm not so sure it would have worked out so well (for me anyway).
I really would like to hear more stories about how they worked and what their relationship consisted of and what Alizée's life was like back then (and now).
Oh, just read DJ_Greg's post. What did she say that would make you think that? What I heard was that mostly Laurent came up with some music and then they discussed ideas for songs and what would go with the music, sometimes what ideas Alizée would like to express, and then while they all worked together on it, Mylène wrote the lyrics. She's the song writer. It was never a secret. Why would they credit it otherwise. In some bands, one guy writes the songs and that's that, no discussions, but just because it wasn't quite like that doesn't mean they needed to give Ali writing credits. It was done in a way that was meant to put Alizée up front as the sole persona and performer and thus necessarily she had to give some influence to it. Maybe the only question of influence I might have is where Alizée said that Mylène gave her advice rather than saying that she gave her direction. I got the impression that Mylène never wanted to act like she owned Ali. So that is why Mylène was very careful how she treated her. Mylène sounds like a really great person from the way Alizée characterizes it and from the appearance of things. I still have no reason to doubt any of that and don't know why Ali would need writing credits. Don't underestimate the great contributions of M&L.

[DJ_Greg]

Originally Posted by Roman

Oh, just read DJ_Greg's post. What did she say that would make you think that? What I heard was that mostly Laurent came up with some music and then they discussed ideas for songs and what would go with the music, sometimes what ideas Alizée would like to express, and then while they all worked together on it, Mylène wrote the lyrics. She's the song writer. It was never a secret. Why would they credit it otherwise. In some bands, one guy writes the songs and that's that, no discussions, but just because it wasn't quite like that doesn't mean they needed to give Ali writing credits. It was done in a way that was meant to put Alizée up front as the sole persona and performer and thus necessarily she had to give some influence to it. Maybe the only question of influence I might have is where Alizée said that Mylène gave her advice rather than saying that she gave her direction. I got the impression that Mylène never wanted to act like she owned Ali. So that is why Mylène was very careful how she treated her. Mylène sounds like a really great person from the way Alizée characterizes it and from the appearance of things. I still have no reason to doubt any of that and don't know why Ali would need writing credits. Don't underestimate the great contributions of M&L.

I don't understand what you're trying to say. You start this paragraph defending Alizée's role in the writing process, and then end with "don't underestimate the great contributions of M&L." How am I underestimating them if I'm saying they did all the songwriting?

I don't know Mylene Farmer, so I can't comment on how "great" of a person she is. And I don't really care. I don't see how that is relevant to the discussion, either.

Quite simply, singers don't get as much respect as singer/songwriters. This is why pop stars make a point of saying they contributed to the writing process (e.g., Kelly Clarkson). It has to do with credibility. Alizée saying (or being told to say) that she was involved in the process was a calculated move to deflect people who would criticize her for "being just a singer."

Once again, if Alizée participated in the writing process, she would be an author of those songs, and would have a legal right to be credited as such. Since she wasn't, she is either a victim of plagiarism or was not as involved as her fans would like to believe.

[Roman]

Originally Posted by DJ_Greg

I don't understand what you're trying to say...

I'm sorry, you're right. I was having a hard time keeping my point clear.
I agree. I heard Alizée (via translation) say that Mylène wrote the songs, but that they discussed the songs, or at least ideas, together (for at least some of the songs, maybe not all). Those aren't the same things.
As for the fans' perspective, well, where the limerence/fandom comes in, it is hard to be objective/logical sometimes.
Oh, and I didn't necessarily mean to direct all of that to you personally.

[kdn]

Great points Roman.
Yes, I agree with almost all of them, but I think things don't usually work that way, and also aren't always so beautiful.

We might never know exactly why ML&LB chosen Alizée, all we know is it was Alizée who was good enough to be chosen. It's a huge why, and I really don't want to say my answer(s) because we also have Mylene's fans on this board. But maybe everybody has already had their answer which could be similar to mine.

BTW, I'm new with both Alizee and Mylene, so limerence and fandom haven't been my problems yet.

[soik]

Originally Posted by lefty12357

I've wondered just how big Alizée’s contribution to the songwriting was. When I was in a band, if someone contributed a fairly detailed idea for a song, we would give them co-authorship on the copyright along with whoever finalized the lyrics and music. Maybe we were being generous, but I think we were just being fair. Either Alizée’s contribution to the process was not significant enough, or they just chose not to give her credit.

I think her involvement and desire in general to control the situation increased in the MCE era and may have culminated in Alizée and MF/LB going their separate ways.

This discussion also reminds me of this thread:

http://moi-alizee.us/forums/showthread.php?t=1404

Thanks for the link to that thread, lefty.
Wow. Those pics are a revelation to me. I'm so behind.


Now I don't feel so concerned for Alizée for being on her own.

No matter how much, if any at all, was Alizée's involvement in writing her previous songs, I can now look forward to hearing from a more independent Alizée. I just hope she and Chatelain didn't write too many duets.lol
Oh well. If she's happy everybody's happy.

[Deepwaters]

It's entirely possible that I'm picking up too much of where Alizée is at now, and reading too much of that into the past when I had no knowledge of her. (Since I only discovered her within the last year, after she'd stopped performing.)

That dislaimer aside, I don't believe Alizée ever claimed she actually WROTE any of the lyrics she sang (let alone the music). The claim was that she participated by talking to Mylène about what she wanted to do with a particular composition of Laurent's, and based on those conversations, Mylène wrote the actual lyrics.

Analogy: If I were to go drinking with a buddy, and during our conversation he let fly with a joke that triggered a wonderful story idea, and I wrote the story and had it published, I would not feel legally obliged to credit my friend. I might do so anyway just because, but he wouldn't have grounds to sue me if I didn't.

The question isn't how much of Alizée's writing is in the lyrics from her two albums (as far as we know the answer is "none"), but rather how much Mylène honored her wishes, and/or how much veto power Alizée possessed over the final outcome. Neither of those would entitle her to songwriting credits. Either one, however, would make the songs bear her imprint. The answers to these questions probably vary from song to song, with the later ones showing more Alizée control than the earlier ones. There is reason based in the subject matter to believe that A Contre Courant is strongly influenced by Alizée, while I think Moi Lolita is probably much less so (it seems much more like a Farmer song).

Whatever the reality of the past, I am quite certain that the current project is being done under Alizée's direction.

[aliquis_venum]

Hi, it have been awhile since I have posted something . But finally, I have my own Alizee En Concert dvd which I bought in eBay last March 3 and it took 6 weeks to arrived . And having finally watch her concert, I was really amazed and at some instance in a trance just watching her performed, her singing and dancing is just unbelievable . I just can't believed that I'm watching her concert though it is just on a video, I just can't described the feeling, I was ecstatic maybe more than ecstatic... WOW!!!! words are just not enought to describe it. So just the expectation that she will return one of these days will make me go crazy , I might find myself in a straight jacket and lock up in a looney bin ...hehehehe.....Whatever she will be when she return, it doesn't matter. As long as she sings again whatever her musics will be, I will listen to it passionately . Like I said to myself before, I will always cherish whatever I have remembered about Alizee. I may never be able to meet her and watch her concert in person. But as long as her music lives in my heart that where she will also always be. I LOVE ALIZEE!!!!

[Luc]

Nice to see you back aliquis_venum. Your story sounds familiar

[MiamMiam]

Originally Posted by DJ_Greg

If Alizée really had as much involvement in writing the songs as she said she did (in interviews), she would have had writing credits.

More than likely, that was just a line she was told to say to give her more credibility.

See I agree with that. And to comment on what deepwaters said about Mylene and Alizee having different styles, don't forget that Mylene has been around a LOT longer, so of course she's going to have to have a different style or else she wouldn't have any sales....staying the same would get boring after a while, don't you think? Also, I think that the reason why Alizee was thrown into a different style was because I think Mylene wanted her to be appealing to everyone. I'm not trying to discredit Alizee, believe me....but I think a lot of it is that she was told what to say in interviews (not to say her personality was fake). She says that she and Mylene are close, yet there are very few if any pictures of them actually together.