A word of caution to the sharing.

[Ben]

If you don't care her and just want to steal her music then find some other board to do that.

Currently downloading is stealing, but only because of the way we use it. Imo, the entire system needs to be re-contextualized. If what I said were true, i.e. if everyone's philosophy about music was what it should be, then it wouldn't matter if her material was posted here or anywhere, because it wouldn't change a single sale. Yes, I know this is not how things are now or will be in the near future, but that's my ideology. I believe in the long term it's the only "solution": people able to download openly and freely, yet without fear that it will effect sales or artist support.

Would you every buy windows just to support microsoft? Hell Fucking No. They do not need more money

Again, it's not about money. "Support" comes in many forms. I happen to like Microsoft overall (sure, they screw a lot up, but they're better than most companies their size would be), so I do consider my purchase of their products in part as a vote of confidence. I could very easily have downloaded them all illegally, but I choose not to.

Buying a CD isn't about putting money in the artist's pocket. It's about making a statement as to what you like and support, so that more of such things get made in the future. This is especially important in Alizée's case, because like it or not her career is on very unstable ground at the moment...

I'll say it once and I'll say it again: see she 100% or 0% of the profit, have she nothing or all the money in the world, each and every sale of her third CD will count and shape the path of her future career. Let's make it a good one... not just for her, but for us!

EDIT: I just though of an example to show you what I mean. Jérémy's new album tanked. Now, I don't think he's a shitty artist, and I also doubt he needs the money. But because so few copies were sold, his career is more or less finished for the time being. Plans for a tour have vanished, and there will be no more promotion for the disc. Why should the record company do anymore if they don't think there's a profit to be made? In interviews he's said that he's trying not to worry too much about it, and that he'll survive, but think how much it must suck for his fans: all the goodies they were looking forward to taken away! How would we feel if the same thing happened to Alizée and us?!

[Matrix]

The entertainment world of today is structured in such a way that a collison of artist and consumer is unavoidable.

The old days where an artist created something and asked for nothing and only basked in the knowledge that the consumer was enjoing thier hard work have long since vanished.

I don't know the history of entertainment and when money started exchanging hands but in the digital world of today I see no hope of artist and consumer ever coming to terms when greed is the bottom line.

The digital genie is out of the bag so to speak and anything that can be digitized is up for grabs on the Internet.

What a mess, lol

I think it all comes down to the artist, the creator. They start the ball rolling, not the consumer. The artist has to give in first.

The internet is a double edged sword, it can provide an immense reservoir of interest for your product and it can also provide an opportunity for those to gain access to your product and manipulate it.

Instant news, instant media, instant transferring of information worldwide! I see no hope for this issue of ever getting resolved.

[RMJ]

Originally Posted by Snatcher42

Currently downloading is stealing, but only because of the way we use it. Imo, the entire system needs to be re-contextualized. If what I said were true, i.e. if everyone's philosophy about music was what it should be, then it wouldn't matter if her material was posted here or anywhere, because it wouldn't change a single sale. Yes, I know this is not how things are now or will be in the near future, but that's my ideology. I believe in the long term it's the only "solution": people able to download openly and freely, yet without fear that it will effect sales or artist support.

Yes, it's currently that way and may be that way long time.

Of course I hope it wasn't this way and that music would be available for those who cares about it and artist could share it to them. And they could interact with each other. Music is after all made to be enjoyed. But it's utopia. And we don't live there. Only way to show her and her record companies that we want her is to make it show up in stats.

Originally Posted by Snatcher42

I'll say it once and I'll say it again: see she 100% or 0% of the profit, have she nothing or all the money in the world, each and every sale of her third CD will count and shape the path of her future career. Let's make it a good one... not just for her, but for us!

EDIT: I just though of an example to show you what I mean. Jérémy's new album tanked. Now, I don't think he's a shitty artist, and I also doubt he needs the money. But because so few copies were sold, his career is more or less finished for the time being. Plans for a tour have vanished, and there will be no more promotion for the disc. Why should the record company do anymore if they don't think there's a profit to be made? In interviews he's said that he's trying not to worry too much about it, and that he'll survive, but think how much it must suck for his fans: all the goodies they were looking forward to taken away! How would we feel if the same thing happened to Alizée and us?!

Excatly. If her albums won't sell, it's bye bye to Alizée. Forever.

(No, I don't believe that she would stop making music even if the next album wouldn't sell. But I just mean that it makes so much harder for us to be able to see the future projects and it will be so much harder for her to reach us.)

Originally Posted by Dotty Old Man

Downloading is bullshit ??? How completely naive. I'll "promote" downloading here and anywhere else that will allow it, whether RMJ wants to see it or not. ILLEGAL downlading isn't smart and I personally do not recommend it, but I'll never fault someone else for doing it.

What makes it naive ? Because I care for her ? Because I don't want her to stop her career ? Because I want to support her as much as I possible can ? Because I want her to keep making the one thing that I love ?

And like I said, only one thing makes this world rolling, money. If you don't believe in money, you are the one who is naive. Only money matters in current world. It's unfortunate but that's how it is.

Originally Posted by Dotty Old Man

(1) Music cannot be stolen, unless you mean shoplifting sheet music or physical media, like a CD. Music is an idea, music is a concept, music is emotion manifest by sound and melody ... music is not property, it cannot be owned, it cannot be restrained. Music is, by definition, completely free. Media - written or recorded - is another issue all together. Media can be bought and sold, and laws can be written to offer some small degree of protection to its creators.

CD, download, whatever the media is, if you don't pay it you steal it. Because Alizée currently does not share free music. If she would, it would be clearly stated on the site of her or where ever she would give it to us for free.

And music is property. Everything in them is copyrighted material. And the owner of Alizée's music is currently Polydor, for which Alizée works(/worked). You cannot recreate the music without direct permission from Polydor.

Originally Posted by Dotty Old Man

(2) RMJ would like to see at least some of us go some place "where no-one cares about anyone or anything". Who is RMJ to tell anyone where to go ? I'll be staying right here until brad says otherwise.

Well, what's the point staying here if you aren't fan of her ? That's the point. If you don't care about her then why to stay here when you can steal her music elsewhere much easier, without someone going mad at you.

[HibyPrime]

Originally Posted by Matrix

The entertainment world of today is structured in such a way that a collison of artist and consumer is unavoidable.

The old days where an artist created something and asked for nothing and only basked in the knowledge that the consumer was enjoing thier hard work have long since vanished.

I don't know the history of entertainment and when money started exchanging hands but in the digital world of today I see no hope of artist and consumer ever coming to terms when greed is the bottom line.

The digital genie is out of the bag so to speak and anything that can be digitized is up for grabs on the Internet.

What a mess, lol

I think it all comes down to the artist, the creator. They start the ball rolling, not the consumer. The artist has to give in first.

The internet is a double edged sword, it can provide an immense reservoir of interest for your product and it can also provide an opportunity for those to gain access to your product and manipulate it.

Instant news, instant media, instant transferring of information worldwide! I see no hope for this issue of ever getting resolved.

That still exists on the internet, see the open-source movement.. I see what you mean that the internet is a double edged sword, but all the internet is is free information. The same informations you can get anywhere else, just a hell of a lot more of it (including boot-leg music).. If the internet is a double-edged sword, then that is just our society being magnified.

The balance of right and wrong, left and right, and everything in between has gotten me thinking over the last few weeks.. I've come to realize from the point of view of the universe, there really is no positive or negative, it's all just neutral. No good, no bad, even the "worst" of crimes (ie. rape) end up doing something good (ie. bringing families and communities together to console the victim). The double edged sword that you speak of does not exist, it's simply a sword with no sides..

RMJ: What happened to you today?

[RMJ]

Originally Posted by Dotty Old Man

But if someone else wants a free ride with their tunes, it isn't my right or responsiblity to try and stop them.

Yes, it is not your job to stop them. But not also to help them or to support them doing it. You should discourage them doing it because you know it's wrong. It's plain wrong. And it's even worse when these some people doing it calls themselves fans. It's disgusting !

Originally Posted by Dotty Old Man

I call THAT bullsh*t ! Music, in the purest and most correct sense, is NOT property. Intellectual property is a legal construct, a convenient, institutionalized concept that serves little purpose beyond making rich people richer. Copyright means NOTHING without the law to defend its existence.

Bullshit or not, it's the REALITY. We don't live in utopia like said. We live in capitalistic world. If you prefer utopia then go to China or something, at least they have communism there so it's bit closer to utopia. Even tho it doesn't work...

Originally Posted by Dotty Old Man

"Recreating the music without Polydor's direct permission" ??? I guess you'll be hunting down the tens of thousands of people (or more) that have ever possessed an MP3 of Alizée's music, then ? Are you going to turn in all those people who post, view and download Polydor-produced videos on YouTube or Yahoo or Google ? Well, get to to work, because they're "stealing" and RMJ thinks he knows better ! Lock 'em all up and fill the jails with dangerous downloaders, heartless brutes that starve artists and leave them cold and hungry in the streets !

So you are now also making fun of me ? It's not enough that you hurt me by supporting on her fan board stealing her music ? Thanks a lot. I feel so good now. It's great to be here with fellow fans.

Originally Posted by Dotty Old Man

If someone out there wants to listen to her catalogue without providing Alizée with any financial and popular support (sales chart numbers), that's their business.

Yes, it's their business and that business does not belong to her fan board ! Like said there's million other boards to do that business. Forums where no-one gives a shit of your lack of respect.

[mibir]

All I got is...Go RMJ! I agree with you!

Oh, and, lay off him nurvonic. "Go take some prozak.. or get laid" Sheesh.

[bt_bird_90]

Originally Posted by nurvonic

i think bt_bird_90 needs to take some prozak or something..or better yet get laid

yes please!

[Señor Villa]

So far everything that I download from artists that I am not familiar with I buy the album if its good. I still like the actual CD with the cover, artwork, and lyrics.

[guldebrett]

A certain amount of piracy is actually good. Without at least a little bit piracy hardly any of us would have ever heard of Alizee in the first place. Her songs, her picturers, and her TV video appearances are all copyrighted material, I'm sure. Also, without piracy the world would have never heard of William Shakesphere. You see, he never did publish his own work. According to the "History Channel" it was the software pirates of his day that copied and then published his work. And volia.. the rest is history!

When it comes to people or companies that I like (and would have probably bought their product anyway) I will purchase their products, even if I already have a copy. I'm buying Alizee's concert from Amazon.fr although I already have the super sharp video and I'm going to buy her 2 CDs. I just wish I could help support directly somehow, so she would get the money, not the music companies. Anyway.. that's my take on the matter.

[neoteny]

not that i feel like butting in between an RMJ and Dotty political debate about what should and shouldnt be done, i'll add my two cents worth to matter anyway. i'll make it brief. downloading music is technically stealing whether it be a movie, a song, or what have you, but i download it for one thing and one thing only - i love music. plain and simple. this includes Alizee's music! bring it on RMJ, bring it on! i dont download her music to send her career down the spiral. THAT WAS NEVER MY INTENTION! who'd ever wanna do something so sinister like that anyway? i think its pretty obvious to me or anyone who sees from my point of view that i download her music mainly because i enjoy listening to it, being that i am... I AM a fan (big or small)! I downloaded her music, and i paid for burning each and every song i placed in a CD-R. jus so i can listen to it elsewhere. i dont know where that money goes to, but at least i dont have a guilty conscience of "stealing" it when it gets burned. And guess what? i bought her CD and Concert DVD! even after downloading! not everybody buys a CD after ripping it, but im one of many MANY people who do.

Im a fan of music. I have a broad horizon of what i like in terms of music genre, and i speak for anyone who agrees with me when i say i love Alizee, and i'll forever enjoy listening to her...(and watching her)...no matter what.

FIN

Dotty, you kick ass...

play nice