Discussing sexual content in Alizée's work

[Corsaire]

Following recent tensions that arose from discussing sexual matters on these forums, I would like to see what members’ opinions on the matter are. Maybe we could poll the members at some point, but for now... Here we go!

I do understand that this is a sensitive subject for many AAm members, but somehow, I believe we have to get past this recurring dilemma. Is it acceptable or not to discuss the sexual content found in Alizée’s work on AAm forums? Two reasons are usually brought forward to explain why we have to tone down sexual topics; first, some members are too young, and second, some members (or the general public) might be offended by such content. I would say that neither are valid reasons to censor sexual content.

AAm forums’ content is purportedly “PG-13 level, or under”. I suppose this means that we have to keep the content to, let say, the level of an 8 y.o, at all times. Isn't this impossible to achieve if adults will be participating as well? As for the PG-13 level, it is generally understood as making sure the content is suitable for a teenager, 13 y.o. or over. Is it realistic to believe that any average 13 y.o. likely to read the content of AAm and whom has been exposed to so much sexual content on T.V. and in popular movies and music would cringe when reading about a few references to sexual matters in a song? Is it really likely, these days, that an average 13 year old would giggle and turn red when he/she reads the word “penis” or “vagina”?

But what about people of all ages that have a particular repugnance towards sexual topics? Well, here again, I do not believe there is a case for censorship of sexual topics on AAm because the nature of the Internet makes it a dangerous place for anyone that is prone to be shocked or traumatized by mild sexual content. From the moment one gets on the Internet, there is a very clear risk of encountering sexual content. Although I myself think this is silly, maybe we could label threads [Sexual content] to help the more sensitive ones avoid being exposed to such topics. We would also then have to make sure that no sexual content is present in other threads.

Another point I would like to make is that to actually be a fan of Alizée and to request on a fan forum that others never discuss or exposed the true meaning of her songs is, in my view, both immature and hypocritical. As I mentioned in another thread, this is like a 7 year old not capable of accepting the fact that his/her parents are having sex. Is this what we are as a group? A 7 year old covering his/her ears at night to avoid being exposed to the reality. Actually, I believe that for many, this aversion to sexual topics when comes to Alizée’s work is just that, a plain and simple refusal to see this important facet in what Alizée's concept was.

To conclude, I believe there is no valid reason to censor sexual topics on AAm. But regardless of my own views on the topic, in order to get past this endless debate, I think it would be best that AAm forums makes it clear once and for all; either we can openly discuss sexual matters (going as far as what relates to Alizée’s work – and always leaving Alizée, the person, out of it) or we just have a clear rule stipulating that sexual topics are not to be discussed in here.



Edit:

From the “J.B.G. Trivia” thread:

Originally Posted by Scruffydog777

As I said before, I'd really would like to know the true meanings of these songs, but not at all costs. The danger of discussing it in this forum is we only have a few members who have a good knowledge of the French language and we have to trust in these individuals that their interpretations are right. The only one who truely knows is MF and though we may have some very educated opinions on the subject, we could really never know for sure unless she told us what she meant.

We could have other members here come along, let's say Joe Schmo who knows a limited amount of French who might do a lot of research on the internet about the lyrics in a particular song and come up with a conclusion that Alizee is saying she wants to sleep with her dad and in the bottom of their heart, might truely believe that and other members might propose interpretations that might seem outlandish, but everyone is entitled to their opinion, so once you open up that door, you better be prepared for whatever walks through.

Most of us with our limited knowledge of the language would be hard pressed to refute claims that are made and in the process Alizee's image is sullied. I'm sure most of us know there were inner meanings to these songs, most, if not all of a sexual nature, but maybe for Alizee's sake, it should be left at that and again for her sake, we should be spared the sordid details. For in the end, what real good will it do us and at what cost?

I remember a time not so long ago when a few members here were quite thankful that people with knowledge of the French language and culture were trying to help the AAm crowd with translations and interpretations of lyrics. From what you wrote, it seems that you believe this is not welcomed anymore. Or maybe you think it is fine to have francophone people help, but only for topics that are not controversial. Is it what this is all about?

As for Alizée herself, I doubt that she can actually follow a discussion on AAm and if she can and she is visiting these forums, who’s to say what her feelings towards such issues are? Again, Alizée did sing those songs and until proven otherwise, she has never stated publicly that she is disapproving of people discussing the sexual content of her early songs. Quite to the contrary, I have posted on these forums an interview where an older Alizée explains with a big grin that, at the time, she was well aware of the trickery (pretending to be an innocent girl unknowingly singing sexually charged songs) and that she went with it perfectly aware of all the meanings. One can decide to ignore she has stated this, or one can say she is now lying about how she felt early in her career, but the fact remains that we have Alizée publicly stating that she was not that innocent Corsican girl so many people here desperately want her to have been.

So, I ask you, who do you really think needs to be protected here? Alizée? Our younger members? Or maybe some members who cannot accept the fact that our little innocent Corsican girl was an act?

[pepelepew]

I am not even slightlly interested in finding out how innocent or mature Alizee was at 15. I'm sure hanging out with MF/LB would have been next to impossible to not learn fast. I also assume that the innocent character of Alizee was necessary for the Lolita scheme to work. As a performer it is necessary to play whatever role is before you. I think that is why they are called performers. I believe Alizee is a great actress. I also believe for the most part her role as Lolita was tastefully done, and that Alizee was a strong influence in keeping it that way.
I have no problem Corsaire discussing anything sexual regarding Alizee as long as it is tastefully done in earnest. The only issue is that everyone has their own standards regarding taste and that is where friction may arise. So be it! I don't speak French, so I welcome any help interpreting songs, interviews etc.

[Euphoria]

Well, it's not just her older work that has sexual connotations. There are plenty of sexual references and double entendres in Psychedelices and UEDS. I've never understood why it was so controversial to ignore the obvious sexuality in her songs, but it also seems as though some people are absolutely oblivious to it. Many times I've seen people discuss the lyrics of J'en ai marre as if it were truly about a girl with a goldfish swimming around her in the bathtub. It just seems odd to me when there is so much sexuality in the media.

Edit:

Originally Posted by pepelepew

I am not even slightlly interested in finding out how innocent or mature Alizee was at 15. I'm sure hanging out with MF/LB would have been next to impossible to not learn fast. I also assume that the innocent character of Alizee was necessary for the Lolita scheme to work. As a performer it is necessary to play whatever role is before you. I think that is why they are called performers. I believe Alizee is a great actress. I also believe for the most part her role as Lolita was tastefully done, and that Alizee was a strong influence in keeping it that way.
I have no problem Corsaire discussing anything sexual regarding Alizee as long as it is tastefully done in earnest. The only issue is that everyone has their own standards regarding taste and that is where friction may arise. So be it! I don't speak French, so I welcome any help interpreting songs, interviews etc.

The problem is that some of the references are quite well, tasteless. At least I think the majority of people here would find them to be too raunchy for discussion, which is why I have avoided it in the past. When the puns are clearly overtly sexual, how is one supposed to know how appropriately sugar coat the meaning? Why do we have to sugar-coat it at all when it is impertinent to understanding the song?

[Azhiri]

As far as offending Alizee herself goes; I thought about it, and since I'm sure she herself knows the underlying nature of her songs and image, she wouldn't mind seeing it being discussed since, after all, it is what it is.

However, what WOULD probably offend her would be the sexual discussions of Alizee herself, but ironically we have quite a lot of "admiration" threads for certain parts of her body. While for the most part those are pretty tame, I never see anyone say, "Well, perhaps it's not good for younger members to see a woman discussed in this way" or "If Alizee herself saw this, it might make her feel uncomfortable" on those threads.

We don't have those floating around in the open anymore, but to be quite honest I thought those were FAR more tasteless than some of the less explicit sexual lyric discussions that people DID criticize. The "body-part-admiration" threads felt like they were turning her into an object; to discuss her sexual lyrics is just words about words that Alizee didn't even write.

While I understand and appreciate the need to keep this forum a friendly, clean place, I think there are far more horrible things a child can and will be exposed to on the internet than talking about sexuality in Alizee songs; if someone disagrees with that statement, then perhaps they shouldn't be on the internet!

[pepelepew]

Originally Posted by Euphoria

Well, it's not just her older work that has sexual connotations. There are plenty of sexual references and double entendres in Psychedelices and UEDS. I've never understood why it was so controversial to ignore the obvious sexuality in her songs, but it also seems as though some people are absolutely oblivious to it. Many times I've seen people discuss the lyrics of J'en ai marre as if it were truly about a girl with a goldfish swimming around her in the bathtub. It just seems odd to me when there is so much sexuality in the media.

Edit:



The problem is that some of the references are quite well, tasteless. At least I think the majority of people here would find them to be too raunchy for discussion, which is why I have avoided it in the past. When the puns are clearly overtly sexual, how is one supposed to know how appropriately sugar coat the meaning? Why do we have to sugar-coat it at all when it is impertinent to understanding the song?

Damn it is already happening! Actually the word mature probably would have been a better word than taste or respectful. In other words keeping it accurate without embellishing. I don't find any of it raunchy at all. It is what it is.

Often such discussions stretch to personal level of Alizée and her family. Still is it unnecessary to censor such discussions?

[Azhiri]

Originally Posted by Merci Alizée

Often such discussions stretch to personal level of Alizée and her family. Still is it unnecessary to censor such discussions?

Very true, I hadn't thought of that. I think it's safe to say that most most controversial subjects can prove to be a bit of a slippery slope.

[User22]

First of all, Corsaire, I want to thank you for putting your thoughts out here on the matter of if we can or should not talk about Alizée's song lyrics and/or Alizée sexually.

As some of you may know, FanDeAlifee chose to post about Alizée elsewhere(which doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't browse here) a couple days ago due to an anonymous member politely asking him not to discuss or even mention some things about Alizée or members of her family sexually in threads of any kind here partly for the sake of the forum's well-being and growth. I would like to officially come out and say that, yes, I was the one who asked him not to discuss or even mention some things about Alizée or members of her family sexually in threads of any kind here partly for the sake of the forum's well-being and growth.

And in doing this I am not trying to point out, put to shame, or do any sort of harm to FanDeAlifee or his image, I would like to summarize the 2 things he said in 2 seperate threads that led me to send him a message to him about it all(NOTE: I cannot specifically quote and link these 2 things because the threads were changed to "Invisible" by the mods):
__________________________________________________ ________________________
-When FanDeAlifee was harmlessly and in a good mindset, trying to help the forum and its members out by trying to create ideas for an official AAm song, he came to a point in the song he was making(which was based off a real song) that was sketchy in a way that he mentioned that the lyric for one of the lines should not say "Alizee is bending over to give a rainbow" because FanDeAlifee said that would imply Alizee was hosting a rainbow party. Now I know he meant no harm in mentioning that, especially since he said the lyric should not say that. But he still typed into the post some very degrading things in that sentence implying that Alizee did those degrading things. And that sentence was brought to the attention of the mods and that thread was made "Invisible".

-In a caption to a photo of Annily's legs in high heels in the "erotic symbolism of the high heel" thread, FanDeAlifee said he guaranteed Annily will not leave this life as a virgin(NOTE: he did not say how this would come to be). I found that to fall under the category of "Alizee and the members of her family should not be discussed about sexually in any kind of thread here(except about Alizee when talking about her song lyrics)".
__________________________________________________ ________________________

Now some of you may say, "Aaronius31, you are doing just as much harm as FanDeAlifee did by repeating what he said in a thread here, which is totally hypocritical of what you are trying to point out". But my response to that is, Corsaire asked we put it all out on the line what we think to get past this all, which in my mind needs to happen also.

Now, to get to the point I was trying to prove by summarizing the 2 suggestive matters posted by FanDeAlifee in this post. The reason I summarized them here is to show that (in my opinion and in Corsaire's words of question):

Originally Posted by Corsaire

always leaving Alizée, the person, out of it[/B]

We should be able to discuss the mature side to Alizee's song lyrics like Corsaire and several others said, but we should TOTALLY LEAVE ALIZEE, the person and members of her family, OUT OF IT.

And here is one of the solutions we made to solve this problem a while back that not many people caught on to obviously:

When creating a thread with topics relating to the sexual content of Alizee's song lyrics(AND NOT ALIZEE THE PERSON), the Thread-Creator should put [MDO] in front of the thread title to warn readers that the thread contains Mature Discussion Only. And to go along with that title-warning, the Thread-Creator should include a note in the first post of that thread of something along these lines:

Link: http://alizeeamerica.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6250

Originally Posted by Aaronius31

Any thread labeled with [MDO] is meant for Mature Discussion Only. This means that while in this thread, you agree to only discuss and debate in a mature, and civil manner, even if you dont agree with the content/ideas presented.

You will remain respectful to all members, and to Alizée

No attacks on people, ideas, or opinions.


If you are unable to discuss the topic in a civil mature way, then this topic is not for you! Posts that violate this rule may be removed.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______________________

See how I put the plentiful amount of space after the post to make sure that if someone did not want to read any part of that mature discussion, that it is guaranteed they will not see any of it since the space will take up their whole screen?

And I also want to give credit to Brian01 for first conceiving that idea and to Corsaire for mentioning in the first post of this thread something of that nature saying it should be a thread-warning like this: [sexual content]

__________________________________________________ ____________________________________

But now to get to the even bigger point of this whole thing...Has anyone taken the time to step back and see that this forum is struggling for various reasons? And that thanks to Ben and the minuscule amount of dedicated donators(which i am very thankful to), this forum is still alive? And that this forum has come VERY CLOSE several times to shutting down for weeks at a time or even permanently? And that we are not promoting, but instead ripping apart the chances of this forum growing in numbers and in healthiness by mentioning things that the general public would not like to see when searching for a forum about Alizee?

My friends, this forum is holding on for dear life, especially since Ben is almost never online for legitimate reasons(and I am not saying that in a bad way to put down Ben, I am simply stating fact). And Ben not being online and not being able to be contacted makes it near impossible to get him to fix the forum since HE has the software, server information, and other things that keep this forum going. Let me point out an example of why this is important: a month or two ago the forum took a big hit since it was down for 2 whole days due to something only Ben could fix, which thankfully after several attempts MerciAlizee and I were able to bring to Ben's attention that he needed to fix the forum for it to get back online.

So all I'm saying is, while some people on here are discussing things that will most likely decrease the chance of more people joining this forum to help it grow, the forum is holding on to dear life while only being supported by Ben and the small amount of donators on this site.

So all I ask is this, can we please swiftly come to a decision that allows those who want to discuss mature things about Alizee's song lyrics to be able to do that while NONE of us being able to discuss or even mention sexual things that disrespect Alizee and her family?

Thankyou for reading what I have to say.

[Azhiri]

One thing I would like to say is that Aaron, I wish you had contacted a mod with your concerns before taking it into your own hands and PMing Fan yourself. While I don't necessarily disagree with all of what you said in that private message, I think that is really something that is best left to a mod. I'm not getting onto you, I'm just saying this for future reference. <3

Now, honestly, and this is only my opinion, we have a bit of a "pick your poison" situation. However, it really only depends on all of you and the way YOU choose to handle it.

I think that given this forums track record when it comes to mature/sexual discussions of any kind for the most part, an attempt to discuss sexuality without personally involving Alizee herself or her family will more likely than not escalate into a giant argument. That is a reason to further censor these discussions. It's sad, but it's the reputation we have set for ourselves and now we have to reap what we've sown.

However, if we decide to keep censoring certain topics, we could potentially lose significant contributing members of the forum (we all saw what happened with Fan) who may lose interest or feel that they are being unfairly silenced. I would offer up the words of my beloved band director (modified for AAm rather than the band, of course) and say, "There was a [forum] before you came here and there will be a [forum] when you leave!" but sadly after reading Aaronius's post I realize that may not be the case.

[User22]

Originally Posted by Azhiri

One thing I would like to say is that Aaron, I wish you had contacted a mod with your concerns before taking it into your own hands and PMing Fan yourself. While I don't necessarily disagree with all of what you said in that private message, I think that is really something that is best left to a mod. I'm not getting onto you, I'm just saying this for future reference. <3

It made more sense to me(and still does) to talk to FanDe myself and try to work it out with him one on one before nagging the mods to take care of it. It's sort of like how eBay Buyer Protection and Paypal take care of their problems; they ask the 2 ebayers to work the problem out among themselves, and if an agreement can't be reached then eBay and Paypal come on in and solve the problem. Sorry for the random example but it best fits the matter at hand.

Originally Posted by Azhiri

Now, honestly, and this is only my opinion, we have a bit of a "pick your poison" situation. However, it really only depends on all of you and the way YOU choose to handle it.

I think that given this forums track record when it comes to mature/sexual discussions of any kind for the most part, an attempt to discuss sexuality without personally involving Alizee herself or her family will more likely than not escalate into a giant argument. That is a reason to further censor these discussions. It's sad, but it's the reputation we have set for ourselves and now we have to reap what we've sown.

However, if we decide to keep censoring certain topics, we could potentially lose significant contributing members of the forum (we all saw what happened with Fan) who may lose interest or feel that they are being unfairly silenced..

I think you're right on your observation that it is indeed a "pick your poison" situation: censor discussions and gain members or not censor discussions and slowly lose members...

Edit:

PLEASE VOTE IN THIS POLL THREAD PARTAINING TO THIS MATTER:

http://alizeeamerica.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6384