Epic YouTube comment on Alizee video

[CleverCowboy]

Originally Posted by Bamagirl

I think I'd like to jump into this conversation!

I'm glad you did!

I have no words. This is an "Epic" post.

[Fall]

Originally Posted by RedRafe

Ok, please DON'T do this.

I personally value you, and your input immensely.

To me, you represent "balance" and "sanity", in a place where sometimes "objectivity" does not exist.

If I have ever offended you, then you please tell me, for, it was never my intention.

I personally would like you to remain in your current role, for, "we", "I", need your "clarity", "objectivity" and your "insights'...

I appreciate your opinion of me Rafe, and you have not offended me. Actually, I wanted to ask if you know about the Scottish band CHVRCHES. They are right up there with Alizée for me as favorite musical acts. I got to see them twice, at an autograph signing and at a concert.

Originally Posted by Scruffydog777

I see no reason for Fall to leave. I can understand his frustration with the FB page. You try and tell these people that it's just a fan page and they are not dealing directly with Alizee and it's like talking to a brick wall. No matter what you tell them, they don't get it. I seldom check the messages because of that, which is a shame because you miss messages from members who do understand, but it is what it is.

Thanks Scruffy, you described it perfectly. I will post some screenshot examples later to give everyone an idea of what we're talking about. I will edit out names and pictures for their privacy.

Originally Posted by CleverCowboy

Fall, I get what you are saying, but his comment about cloning and having an "Alizee for every man" was not the target of my response. It's what he said after that part.. he was brutally honest about his loneliness in his advanced age and how Alizee, somehow, fills something that was missed in his life. As one progresses through middle age and into their senior years, the more reflective one gets. I not only see it in my own life, but especially when I visit my elderly mother, who is too old to have many new experiences and mainly has to draw upon memories for topics of conversation. The commenter really spilled out his reflections on his life and how a woman of Alizee's caliber would have made the perfect match for him. He even admits it is just fiction and is just a dream, but dreaming doesn't stop at a certain age. Despite being just a poetic fantasy, he was bold putting it out there on the Internet.

Being that this comment was on JEAM made it more surprising. I normally don't like to look at JEAM comments because it draws a different audience and comments are often lewd. Even the positive comments on her other videos focus much of the time on her beauty. He not once mentions her beauty, but rather her voice and her movements. He has unreciprocated "love" for Alizee, or at least her persona, but is that so unusual? If everybody waited to be loved before they reciprocate, the world would be a much colder place because somebody would have to take that first leap, and it would be forever stalemated.

Edit:



I think her response was rough. The guy might be disabled, have medical problems, or some other issue that prevented him from finding somebody to spend his life with or be out and about being social. Yes, he might be unattractive as well. He sees something he really likes in Alizee and dreams a little, so he is labeled as delusional. She also uses the word "men", implying that the many who follow Alizee closely cannot find anybody else. I can attest that a guy can live a normal life with a significant other and still be a close fan of Alizee, because that person is myself. So, she is taking a swipe at me as well with it.

Edit Edit:

Have you ever wonder why romance novels are so popular with women? Might they be finding something in them that is lacking in their real-life relationships, like Casanova? Maybe they "fall in love" with the main character, who in this case is purely fictional? Are we going to call these millions of women delusional?

Alizee might be the male replacement for the romance novel.

There's a huge difference between fantasizing about a romance novel character and wishing every man (his words) had a lifelong Alizée clone companion. She is a real person with her own thoughts, ideas, and goals. A young woman might dream of being with a Twilight character, but it is necessarily fiction. The point of my post was to highlight the YouTube commenter's thinking that it's appropriate to see her as a commodity; in addition, the dozens of fans on Facebook who obstinately try to shove their infatuation to the forefront and into her attention.

Originally Posted by Bamagirl

I think I'd like to jump into this conversation!

One of the first things that strikes me in this conversation is the very fact of Alizée's role as a celebrity and her public persona. For as long as people have existed, they have idealized real public figures as well as fictional figures—both male and female: ancient gods and goddesses; kings; god-kings; pharaohs; queens and princesses; warriors and religious leaders; heroes and heroines (Hercules and modern, cartoonish "super-heroes") and so on. In our current world in Western society, we tend to be focused on primarily performers and royalty, with a dash of those fantasy "super heroes." That's just the way it is. And of these performers, we seem to particularly admire singers. And of these singers, we seem to hold "pop" singers in the highest esteem.

So, in my opinion it is completely natural that a performer/singer such as Alizée would develop a devoted following—both male and female, by the way. There will be those with unrealistic fantasies, of course, who believe that they know her and understand her and could potentially have a real-life relationship with her. But that is SO common it is almost natural. We all do that with public people, to some extent. Who can honestly say that they don't feel they have some kind of real understanding of the personality of a famous actor that they have seen in many roles, or an author whose words they have read?

This is something that is inherently human: the desire to connect with other people. And public figures create a circumstance in which that connection seems to be so easily made, without the disappointments of "real life." I can read the works of an author and honestly feel like I could be a good friend of his or hers, because I feel like I understand that person. But, of course, it is one-sided. They know nothing of me. Yet if I had the chance, I would still love to meet and spend time with my favorite authors and poets—though they might not have any interest in me, whatsoever.
Yet we long for that perfect harmony of camaraderie with someone we admire.

When you have a public figure like Alizée, it is even easier. She is not controversial—her role is not to preach or politicize or rally or convince. She doesn't do deeds of which we are asked to approve. She doesn't make decisions affecting our lives which we have to accept. And she has shown enough of herself to the world through interviews, photos, performances and the way she has conducted herself in her life that we see real and true aspects of her personality and character. These are not imaginary—you really can learn something of her. Not everything, of course, but enough to have a valid sense of the kind of person she is. Someone once said that the more you know of someone's story, the easier it is to love them. This is very true.

to this the fact that she is unarguably very attractive (which, let's face it, makes a HUGE difference in how people feel about other people) and she has talent and has had success. People are naturally drawn to successful people.

So, all that being the case, and for all these other reasons, it is inevitable that Alizée would have many fans, or followers, or admirers, or whatever you want to call them.

I can understand how frustrating it is to see all the silliness on some of FB page posts with people saying "I love you" or doing the virtual world version of throwing themselves at her, screaming. There is only a technical difference between this and the hysterical girls who fainted at Beatles' Concerts! But the fact that these people exist does not take away from the reality that there are other people who seriously admire Alizée because of what they know about her—what she has allowed to be known—as well as for her art and what it means to them, personally. Here we could get into a definition of "art" and the effect it has on the individual human psyche, but I'll save that for another day!

There is nothing bizarre or unnatural about people feeling a strong connection to Alizée—especially those who have followed her career for years and who know something of her "story." And I would venture to say that she, herself, appreciates and values this. If she did not, she would not continue to allow herself to remain a public figure and share aspects of her life with the public. She had done a very good job, I think, of protecting the parts of her life that she wishes to remain private. But she continues to encourage her fans to know the parts she is willing to share with them. Very healthy and very normal and very human.
If by paying attention to her and learning about her helps others to understand themselves—and perhaps helps them in their own lives with relationships and expectations of relationships—that is all for the good. I realize that some people will be unrealistic and expect that they will find someone who fits their perfect ideal and will never disappoint them—that is sad, but it can't be helped. Those people have always existed. Think "Pygmalion."

I hope none of the members of this forum let this aspect of human nature discourage them from their own way of enjoying their admiration of Alizée. I agree with CleverCowboy that "…a guy can live a normal life with a significant other and still be a close fan of Alizee…" and also his assessment about the comment from the woman who said "Does Alizée in particular attract these delusional men who are obsessed and act like they are in a relationship with her? Because I haven't heard of it in relation to other artists… This is an objectification issue." This suggestion of "objectification" is extremely annoying to me, as a woman, and insulting to Alizée, by the way. Nowadays it has become popular for some activist women to complain about pretty much everything about being women. As they do this, they are insulting other women who have the right to live as they choose. For example, beauty pageants are called "sexist" and "exploitive" –never mind that the contestants enjoy and value them and work hard in their participation. The arrogance of this attitude is breathtaking. And I can't believe this woman has never heard of other artists being swooned over. Her use of words like "delusional" and "obsessed" are inappropriate. As CC points out, how do we know their story? Who is she to judge? I hope her words do not make other members of this forum doubt themselves.

My last comment is for Fall. You obviously have spent a lot of time growing and learning, and your admiration for Alizée is, in my opinion, natural and healthy and normal. I hope you won't get soured by the people on FB who come and go and are unrealistic and/or silly. Our world has opened up a great deal with the Internet, and this last generation has had to get accustomed to a level of broad experience of others that we were pretty much oblivious to in the past. We are now inundated with comments and opinions from a huge array of people, and we must adapt to this and learn to filter it so that we get a realistic picture of what is out there—good and bad and weird and everything in between. It is important to not get discouraged and judge this herd of people by the same standards we used when our own world of experience was more limited.

Until and unless Alizée herself pulls a Garbo and puts a message out there saying "Enough! Stop talking about me! Leave me alone!" I feel like it is entirely appropriate and fun and acceptable and all things positive to remain fans on whatever level each person finds important.

The first part of your post is mainly about how people like celebrities, who are public figures, which I haven't argued against. Thank you for your words of encouragement I can understand your frustration with people striving to find a fault where there may be none. But I'm glad that you brought up insulting women and their right to live as they choose. If I may use your own words, were you also extremely annoyed at the part of his comment where he said that "young women who think g-string twerking should take a lesson in sensual movement from Alizée?" Whatever one's opinion on twerking, it is a kind of dancing that takes some skill and practice. Surely it can be considered a leisure activity that young women enjoy and work on - but should this be invalidated because this guy doesn't like it or find it sensual?

As for her choice of words, they refer not only to this particular comment but other examples of lewd and distasteful messages sent to our small Facebook page - a minor one compared to other fan pages. It's something I've discussed with her (and shown her) on a few occasions. Who knows what kind of messages and comments she receives on a daily basis on her official pages (which are marked as such and thus have more followers) As I mentioned earlier, I will post a few screenshots (or maybe just text) of some conversations I've had with some of these guys. Perhaps that will give everyone a greater insight to what I'm trying to say here.

[CleverCowboy]

Originally Posted by Fall

There's a huge difference between fantasizing about a romance novel character and wishing every man (his words) had a lifelong Alizée clone companion. She is a real person with her own thoughts, ideas, and goals. A young woman might dream of being with a Twilight character, but it is necessarily fiction. The point of my post was to highlight the YouTube commenter's thinking that it's appropriate to see her as a commodity; in addition, the dozens of fans on Facebook who obstinately try to shove their infatuation to the forefront and into her attention.

Your response was based on his first two sentences (clones and such). My response was based on everything after, which I though was a brilliant display of word pictures and imagery. I myself have never or will ever think of Alizee as a commodity, and my take on his comment was something along the lines of a "romance novel" for men as mentioned before.

Edit:

Originally Posted by Fall

Who knows what kind of messages and comments she receives on a daily basis on her official pages (which are marked as such and thus have more followers) As I mentioned earlier, I will post a few screenshots (or maybe just text) of some conversations I've had with some of these guys. Perhaps that will give everyone a greater insight to what I'm trying to say here.

I would really like to see some samples. I have no doubt what you are saying is true.

[Bamagirl]

Originally Posted by Fall

I can understand your frustration with people striving to find a fault where there may be none. But I'm glad that you brought up insulting women and their right to live as they choose. If I may use your own words, were you also extremely annoyed at the part of his comment where he said that "young women who think g-string twerking should take a lesson in sensual movement from Alizée?" Whatever one's opinion on twerking, it is a kind of dancing that takes some skill and practice. Surely it can be considered a leisure activity that young women enjoy and work on - but should this be invalidated because this guy doesn't like it or find it sensual?

No, his comment about twerking didn’t bother me, because he was comparing it to what, in his opinion, is sensual movement. He is entitled to that opinion. Twerking certainly isn’t everyone’s cup of tea, but women who choose to do it absolutely have that right. What I don’t like is when other women set themselves up as morality judges, and proclaim certain freely-engaged-in activities by other women to be things “wrong” or “exploitive.” I realize that in some places and some cases women have been—and are—exploited. But we shouldn’t paint all things with the same brush. Just like all men who admire Alizée—who dream of knowing a woman like the one they imagine her to be—are not “delusional” or “obsessed.”

Originally Posted by Fall

As for her choice of words, they refer not only to this particular comment but other examples of lewd and distasteful messages sent to our small Facebook page - a minor one compared to other fan pages. It's something I've discussed with her (and shown her) on a few occasions. Who knows what kind of messages and comments she receives on a daily basis on her official pages (which are marked as such and thus have more followers) As I mentioned earlier, I will post a few screenshots (or maybe just text) of some conversations I've had with some of these guys. Perhaps that will give everyone a greater insight to what I'm trying to say here.

I have no doubt that Alizée gets inappropriate messages like the ones you describe. I can agree with your friend if she is referring to these obnoxious people, as opposed to normal fans who enjoy idealizing her, perhaps, but in a harmless and natural way.
Almost all women who are even reasonably attractive know what it is to be ogled by men both in a tolerable way and in a cross-the-line, inappropriate way. I can only imagine how many times magnified that is for celebrities.
There are plenty of creep-os out there. Believe me, as a female I know that for a fact. But don’t let them mar for you the enjoyment and beauty of a pure and honest admiration for someone. Ignore them...brush them aside like the irritating pests they are, and continue doing what you’re doing. That’s my advice!

[Fall]

Here are some examples of the more harmless, roll-your-eyes kind of stuff we get. Nothing bad, but it irks me that these guys have so little netiquette and feel no shame doing this.




Sometimes I like to just mess with them. In this instance, since they sent so many hearts I decided to send some back. I did not send the question mark reply, but I was equally confused by their painting question



In this example, after telling him that we are fans and asking him to join us on AAm, he responds in French with - very good thanks - and in Spanish with - thank u i love u alizee So I tell him that I wasn't sure if he spoke Spanish or not, but I repeat - we aren't Alizée dude, this is a fan page - and I'm amused enough to mess with him and tell him that we love him too (and he starts fishing for info about where I'm from)



Few of us speak French but you get a sense of what's being said here.



Sometimes, they realize their mistakes and try to play it cool

- Pretty

- Hello
- Alizee


This is not the official page of Alizée -
We are fans -
She doesn't use this page -

- Yes I know
- I'm also fans of her

You sent a message to our page saying hello Alizee -
That's why I'm saying that she doesn't manage this page -

- Ah yes it was not meant for you
- I made a mistake it was for her
- The message

- Hello guys how have you been fans of Alizee

[Mr Coucou]

Originally Posted by Fall

There's a huge difference between fantasizing about a romance novel character and wishing every man (his words) had a lifelong Alizée clone companion. She is a real person with her own thoughts, ideas, and goals. A young woman might dream of being with a Twilight character, but it is necessarily fiction. The point of my post was to highlight the YouTube commenter's thinking that it's appropriate to see her as a commodity; in addition, the dozens of fans on Facebook who obstinately try to shove their infatuation to the forefront and into her attention.

So you hate all these guys who, as you like to put it, are treating Alizee like a commodity.

Do you also hate Mylene?

Because Mylene, by hiring Alizee, was using sex to sell records. Mylene's selection of Alizee wasn't just about sex, but sex was a significant factor. The very first song was "Moi Lolita", after all.

Mylene was, essentially, commoditizing Alizee. That's exactly what Mylene was doing.

Alizee herself was using sex to sell records, and she-- and her parents-- knew it from the very beginning. It wasn't all about sex, but sex was a factor.

When Alizee performed J'en Ai Marre, she knew that it was a very sexy dance. It wasn't all about sex per se, but sex was a significant aspect of the dance. Alizee was using sex to records--- and she knew it.

Alizee was commoditizing herself.


If you hate Alizee being commoditized, you should hate Mylene. And you should hate Alizee herself.

P.S. This is in regard to the army guy, whose comment was relatively mild. See my comment down below.

[CleverCowboy]

Originally Posted by Fall

Sometimes, they realize their mistakes and try to play it cool

- Pretty

- Hello
- Alizee


This is not the official page of Alizée -
We are fans -
She doesn't use this page -

- Yes I know
- I'm also fans of her

You sent a message to our page saying hello Alizee -
That's why I'm saying that she doesn't manage this page -

- Ah yes it was not meant for you
- I made a mistake it was for her
- The message

- Hello guys how have you been fans of Alizee

Ohhh. Wow. I see what you mean.

Now I get to do a face palm.

[Fall]

Then these guys start to get a little more aggressive and creepy.



This dude opens with "ring me sugar" in Danish and sent his phone number



This other guy sends a joke in Polish which doesn't get a good translation into English with Google. It was something about slapping, and his message was a reply to one of Scruffy's posts where Alizée is hunched over during JPVA. (Is the joke about slapping her then?) So I ask him to translate it and he later gets angry that I don't get it, saying that Slavic people would. Umm, ok? Then he says he prefers French to English anyway.



This guy... just doesn't give up



This guy stopped sending any more messages about love after I told him he's talking to a bunch of guys.



This one is a bit hard to see, so let me know if you would like to see it in parts and zoomed in a little. After all those messages, I finally told this guy that we are just fans like him, and then he expected us to send him a link to her official page. I don't know if I should have, but I redirected him.



This guy we had serious problems with. He made multiple accounts and spammed basically his day to day life in messages. He had deleted this account at the time of this screenshot but he used another where he sent us pictures from a grocery store, a video of him in the shower, several shirtless pictures of himself, a picture of his wife next to him in bed, and a shirtless picture of himself with his wedding photo on the wall behind him. Here he's talking about taking his wife's virginity and making her his. As you can see, he also sent some pictures of social media and some audio of him speaking in Portuguese.

More to come later.

[Mr Coucou]

Originally Posted by Fall

This guy we had serious problems with. He made multiple accounts and spammed basically his day to day life in messages. He had deleted this account at the time of this screenshot but he used another where he sent us pictures from a grocery store, a video of him in the shower, several shirtless pictures of himself, a picture of his wife next to him in bed, and a shirtless picture of himself with his wedding photo on the wall behind him. Here he's talking about taking his wife's virginity and making her his. As you can see, he also sent some pictures of social media and some audio of him speaking in Portuguese.

More to come later.

Fall---

I just want to clarify.

My comment about Mylene and Alizee using sex to sell records was in regards to the army guy who posted about every man deserving an Alizee clone. What he said is rather mild (and actually, I think the guy was very respectful of Alizee.)

I don't think that Alizee (or any woman for that matter) deserves all the bizarre comments that you are posting here. (That said, I don't think that much can be done about it.)

[Shepherd]

Originally Posted by Mr Coucou

Alizee herself was using sex to sell records, and she-- and her parents-- knew it from the very beginning. It wasn't all about sex, but sex was a factor.

When Alizee performed J'en Ai Marre, she knew that it was a very sexy dance. It wasn't all about sex per se, but sex was a significant aspect of the dance. Alizee was using sex to records--- and she knew it.

Alizee was commoditizing herself.


If you hate Alizee being commoditized, you should hate Mylene. And you should hate Alizee herself.

In an interview, Alizee stated that it would be difficult for a female singer to be successful if she didn't have an attractive personality and wasn't physically attractive. It is obvious that Alizee has known from the very beginning of her career when she was 15-years-old that in the entertainment business the performer is the commodity. The music is for sale but so is the entertainer. When an entrepreneur puts a show together, he/she must get some NAME performers to participate. To advertise that your venue will have "a singer" has no punch compared to "Salena Gomez will be on stage." The brand is all important. When entrepreneurs hire an entertainer, they check statistics to see how many fans can that entertainer bring to the venue. The same applies to advertisers. They pay the biggest bucks to famous people to advertise their merchandise--way more than they pay a no-name model. In the capitalist system, everyone is a commodity and each of us can draw a price commiserate with what we can bring to the table.

As for the outrage over someone saying that it would be great if we could clone Alizee so everyone could have a copy, I can only say get a grip on yourself. Cloning Alizee is a fantasy made with a touch of humor. There is no reason why she should be offended by a statement that recognizes her desirability. If anything, I think she would take the statement as a compliment.