AJ wishes to work with MF again

[Fall]

Originally Posted by DrSmith

You didn't say that, which is why I posed it as a question or a suggestion that maybe that's the way you feel and you don't even realise it. Could be something to think about. If you have a strong preference for "modest" attire in women, there may be some misguided force behind it and a very damaging side-effect, i.e. "slut-shaming."

It's okay if you prefer women who keep themselves covered up, it's the condemnation of the opposite that is a problem.

I see what you mean, and yes, it IS something to think about. Hmm, well I wouldn't say it was a strong preference, cause like I said, JPVA dress and also, Tatiana Thumbtzen in MJ's "TWYMMF"* yummeh But LMP in You Are Not Alone, idk, though she really is attractive.

*You'll see what I mean in the first five seconds

Originally Posted by DrSmith

I think the unwritten law is "you're allowed to go off-topic as long as you acknowledge you are," right?

I suppose it is

[pepelepew]

Originally Posted by DrSmith

…because if she did decide to go nude for a photoshoot or something, that would make her a worse person? It would decrease her value in some way?

Postin' this link because I agree with pretty much everything this lady has to say : http://jezebel.com/5966651/hey-girls...ty-is-bullshit

« The problem is the implication that there's a "right" way to be a woman, and that men—anonymous, strange men on the internet, no less—have some say in what that "right" way looks like. And I'm very sorry, "Guys," but my only "womanly duty" is to myself. »



A very important difference. You should have no cause to complain when she does what she wants to do. This isn't just about Alizée doing something you don't like, it's about many people who carry this misogynistic and oppressive attitude that is a taint on society. If a woman showing off her body lessens her value in your mind, you need to change. It shouldn't bother you if a woman wants to dress in very revealing clothing or be nude in a movie or a magazine or anywhere else. There's nothing wrong with that. The former president of France and his beautiful wife agree with me.*

*Warning : link leads to a photo of an unclothed woman


I'm not saying that this attitude applies 100% to everyone who's commented on the last couple pages, but it probably applies a little bit to almost everyone. (I probably even lost Euphoria at some point—I know she doesn't like nipples.) It's the little remnants of the past—when society was much more oppressive to women, if you can imagine—that are so embedded in everyone's mind that cause you to look down on someone who would dare show off her body and be proud of her sexuality, rather than dressing like the women on Turner Classic Movies… who, by the way, didn't have much choice in how they dressed…


That may have gone a bit off topic, but I wouldn't be doing my job if I didn't hit 'Submit Reply' right now.

It's ironic that in your quest to show how open minded and evolved you are in not making value judgments, you closed your mind to anyone elses opinions that don't fit into your narrative.-(The world according to Dr. Smith)- A value judgement in and of itself and an oppressive one at that.

[lapinschous]

Originally Posted by Euphoria

It's not like Alizee was her slave, either. I'm sure she enjoyed playing a sexy tease at first, but a lot of women grow out of that.

Maybe not her slave, but she had an immense authority over Alizée, she was the tutor of her early career , expected her to do whatever she said , closely monitored her performances, interviews, looking out for every little mistake . Lili was under great pressure and her shy personality led her to set aside her critical thinking and do as she was told.

Mylène being a freemason, and knowing the persuasive power of this kind of people, I can perfectly imagine some sort of manipulation that she wanted to escape from , regardless of the cost or the person that would help her doing so. That person turned out to be Jérémy and was the person that would change her forever; made her become more materialistic and superficial on some aspects of her life (while she said she only needed simple things in her early interviews) , made her become more attracted to the "bad boy" side of men (while she said that she just wanted anyone nice with her ) , who made her want to shield herself with tattoos etc.. But deep inside, even with this shell that she built around her , the Alizée of the beginnings remains untouched, just a bit traumatized by the merciless world of fame .

When she started to work with Mylène .
v


After the break up
v


The relationship with Jérémy
v


After the divorce
v


Commercial failure of UEDS
v




From the thoughtlessness of the beginnings to maturity, she's been through a lot of hardships and she's changed . But we still love her.

[DrSmith]

Originally Posted by pepelepew

It's ironic that in your quest to show how open minded and evolved you are in not making value judgments, you closed your mind to anyone elses opinions that don't fit into your narrative.-(The world according to Dr. Smith)- A value judgement in and of itself and an oppressive one at that.

Nice spin. I disagree with those that would pre-judge others and try to tell them how they should behave and live. And you're mad that I disagree with your right to take away other peoples' rights? You judge me for judging you for judging everyone, now I judge you again. This could go on forever.

I haven't closed my mind to the opinion that some people should be able to tell other people how to live their lives. I've heard it, I've thought about it, and I've rejected it. Which is probably more thought than you've done to reach your conclusion that women ought to live by a code that men set for them.

The definition of closed-minded is "stubbornly unreceptive to new ideas." You know what isn't a new idea? Sexism. It's been around forever, but if I want to challenge that then I'm being closed-minded? Pwaha!

[Corsaire]

Originally Posted by DrSmith

Nice spin. I disagree with those that would pre-judge others and try to tell them how they should behave and live. And you're mad that I disagree with your right to take away other peoples' rights? You judge me for judging you for judging everyone, now I judge you again. This could go on forever.

I haven't closed my mind to the opinion that some people should be able to tell other people how to live their lives. I've heard it, I've thought about it, and I've rejected it. Which is probably more thought than you've done to reach your conclusion that women ought to live by a code that men set for them.

The definition of closed-minded is "stubbornly unreceptive to new ideas." You know what isn't a new idea? Sexism. It's been around forever, but if I want to challenge that then I'm being closed-minded? Pwaha!

Aren't you going a bit overboard here, Docteur?

I believe every single person has the right to reject and dislike whatever they want. No one has demanded that Alizée’s clitoris be excised if she shows her ass. No one has asked that MF be lapidated on the public place or put in prison for her striptease in that video. Docteur, where was it demanded that any woman should be forced to live by any rule set for them? I personally claim the right to dislike and reject anything I want to. And I don’t care for that “but as long as it is what she/he wants to do”, no one should question it. I have a brain and I am capable of judgement based on my values and my preferences and if I want to reject something , that is my prerogative. Alizée can still do what she wants with her body and her life.

I would instantly reject any male singer if he based his act on eating rats, blowing farts into flames or caressing his dick through his leather jeans. Is this because he is a man and I want him to live by my rules? No, it is just because I find this sort of stuff silly and uninteresting. In the case of MF, I don’t value her work because there is nothing of substance she can offer me. She has built a career based on the controversial nature of her work and, well, to me, she has stopped being controversial and innovative a very long time ago. As for her sexy erotic side, I don’t care for it. Too contrived, too obvious, too childish and silly. So, I just reject her act. Not because she is a woman or because I am sexist. Not because she shows some skin, but simply because I find her uninteresting. And on top of this, I claim the right to share my views on this subject, regardless of “what MF wants to do with her life and her body” and regardless of what any of her fans might think. In the case of Alizée, if she starts to show her ass, I will drop her instantly. Not because she is a woman, not because I am sexist, but simply because this is not the reason why I am following her career. I would also seize to be a fan if she started eating rats or setting farts on fire on stage... even if that is “her choice and her body”.

[DrSmith]

Originally Posted by Corsaire

Are you going a bit overboard here, Docteur?

I already admitted that I took this discussion to a level that it wasn't at, and that it's not just about Alizée. I can rant, can't I?

Originally Posted by Corsaire

Docteur, where was it demanded that any woman should be forced to live by any rule set for them?

Oh, lots of places. I assure you. And are you telling me that someone's preference for "modest" women is not influenced by an ages-old standard set for them?

Originally Posted by Corsaire

I believe every single person has the right to reject and dislike whatever they want. No one has demanded that Alizée’s clitoris by excised if she shows her ass. No one has asked that MF be lapidated on the public place or put in prison for her striptease in that video.

No, but it's been implied time and time again. People stating that they would lose all respect for Alizée if she was nude in a video (or because she got tattoos.) Because Alizée represents some kind of "purity" to them, which is a result of patriarchal oppression. That's my point. You don't have to like something, but losing all respect for someone and regarding them as trash is a step too far.

Originally Posted by Corsaire

In the case of MF, I don’t value her work because there is nothing of substance she can offer me. She has built a career based on the controversial nature of her work and, well, to me, she has stopped being controversial and innovative a very long time ago. As for her sexy erotic side, I don’t care for it. Too contrived, too obvious, too childish and silly. So, I just reject her act. Not because she is a woman or because I am sexist. Not because she shows some skin, but simply because I find her uninteresting. And on top of this, I claim the right to share my views on this subject, regardless of “what MF wants to do with her life and her body” and regardless of what any of her fans might think. In the case of Alizée, if she starts to show her ass, I will drop her instantly. Not because she is a woman, not because I am sexist, but simply because this is not the reason why I am following her career. I would also seize to be a fan if she started eating rats or setting farts on fire on stage... even if that is “her choice and her body”.

You're not one of the people calling Mylène or Carla Bruni a slut and a whore, so I'm not talking about you.

[Bigdan]

Originally Posted by DrSmith

You're not one of the people calling Mylène or Carla Bruni a slut and a whore, so I'm not talking about you.

I don't want to take part of this debate, which I see it as too much serious on such a subject for me. I would just say calling Mylène a slut is bad, specially if you really mean it. She called herself a "harlot" in Libertine. And that was just about teasing and fun. And I like her for that.

[Euphoria]

I hate the term slut. It means something different to everyone. I thought a slut was someone who slept with everyone. Like the whole school, town, their workplace, etc. Posing nude doesn't make you a slut. It's art, it's been done for thousands of years. Models that pose nude for artists are sluts? Some of you guys are stuck in the Dark Ages.

[pepelepew]

Originally Posted by DrSmith

Nice spin. I disagree with those that would pre-judge others and try to tell them how they should behave and live. And you're mad that I disagree with your right to take away other peoples' rights? You judge me for judging you for judging everyone, now I judge you again. This could go on forever.

I haven't closed my mind to the opinion that some people should be able to tell other people how to live their lives. I've heard it, I've thought about it, and I've rejected it. Which is probably more thought than you've done to reach your conclusion that women ought to live by a code that men set for them.

The definition of closed-minded is "stubbornly unreceptive to new ideas." You know what isn't a new idea? Sexism. It's been around forever, but if I want to challenge that then I'm being closed-minded? Pwaha!

You can call it spin if you want to, but I was merely pointing out the blatant hypocrisy and assumptions that you know other peoples beliefs or motives. You couldn't possibly arrive at your extreme conclusions with any degree of accuracy from what has been discussed thus far.

[DrSmith]

Originally Posted by pepelepew

You can call it spin if you want to, but I was merely pointing out the blatant hypocrisy and assumptions that you know other peoples beliefs or motives. You couldn't possibly arrive at your extreme conclusions with any degree of accuracy from what has been discussed thus far.

My conclusions were based on posts from other threads, not just this one. And like I said, they don't apply 100% to everyone. If what I said doesn't describe you at all, then you have no reason to be defensive. I didn't point my finger at anyone.

I'd just like to point out that calling someone a hypocrite is cheap way to try to undermine their stance when you don't want to admit that they're right. You've not said word one about whether you think I'm right or I'm wrong, you've just nit-picked at my words hoping you could catch me in some technicality. It's pointless. I'm like Corsaire and you're like a rat-eater : you're boring me !