Mlle Julliete Discussion Thread

[Cooney]

Originally Posted by Deepwaters

One correction on the transcription above. Note the difference in pronunciation on what appears to be (but isn't) the last syllable of Juliet's name between the first and third lines of each stanza and in the chorus. What you're spelling as "Jullietta" I believe is actually "Julliette a," i.e. Julliette has. In the third stanza, Alizée pronounces it "Julliett-eh" (rather than "-ah") which is the name as a stand alone.

So the chorus would actually read:

Mademoiselle Julliette a
Pas vraimant la tête
Choisir entre Montague et Capulet

And you have it correctly translated. However, along the same lines I believe the first two lines should be translated as "Miss Juliet has her Romeo in the alpha," although I'm still not clear what "in the alpha" refers to.

Edit: Yes, I realize "a pas vraimant la tête" is incorrect grammar, and technically it should be "n'a pas" but it's a song lyric.

That would make sense. The one place using avoir wouldn't work (right before the "me refaire l'intention" line) she does pronounce it without that strong ah sound. I'll get that editted. I locked in on the idea that she used an Italian pronunciation and disregarded the missing avoir.

To have something in the alpha would be a way (albeit an unusual one) of saying you have something in the first position in your mind. Romeo is her alpha, first in her heart and her mind. Reference: Alpha male, or being the Alpha and the Omega.

Originally Posted by Tye

Thanks for posting that, Cooney.

Also, the base in this song is crazy!!!!!

You bet!

The bass is strong - I eliminated all of it while transcribing. Hurray for equalizers and mixer software!

[Toc De Mac]

Questions:

1) De Verona au mal coeur

To me, it doesn't sound like she is saying "coeur," but something more along the lines of "cour." Is she just slightly mispronouncing it on purpose so as to make it rhyme with the next line?

2) Elle monte vite dans les tours

It might just be because of the crazy bass, but I'm not hearing the final "t" sound in "vite."

3) Me refaire l'intention

Is Alizée pronouncing "l'intention" in an odd, almost English way? It doesn't sound to me like she is pronouncing the "-tion" in a French manner.

4) Dans son rôle et niveau, qu'elle

Isn't "niveau" pronounced along the lines of [nee-vo], and not [nuh-vuh]?

5) Pas de repli de tout pièces

It definitely sounds like there is a hard "c" sound on the end of "repli." To me, at least. Perhaps I've just listened to this song so much that my brains are starting to liquidate.

[Moe]

i don't think its that great.

[CFHollister]

Cooney, my French is extremely limited but is it possible that instead of "bottle of Coke" that it could be "capsule of Coca"... as in a pill of the drug with which to commit suicide... her only "shelter" from her tragic situation?

Just wondering.

[Minno]

Yeah a link or something for this file would be great in a PM

[Cooney]

Originally Posted by Toc De Mac

Questions:

1) De Verona au mal coeur

To me, it doesn't sound like she is saying "coeur," but something more along the lines of "cour." Is she just slightly mispronouncing it on purpose so as to make it rhyme with the next line?

2) Elle monte vite dans les tours

It might just be because of the crazy bass, but I'm not hearing the final "t" sound in "vite."

3) Me refaire l'intention

Is Alizée pronouncing "l'intention" in an odd, almost English way? It doesn't sound to me like she is pronouncing the "-tion" in a French manner.

4) Dans son rôle et niveau, qu'elle

Isn't "niveau" pronounced along the lines of [nee-vo], and not [nuh-vuh]?

5) Pas de repli de tout pièces

It definitely sounds like there is a hard "c" sound on the end of "repli." To me, at least. Perhaps I've just listened to this song so much that my brains are starting to liquidate.

Yes to all 5 questions. Each of those was something that took me quite a while to decide what I thought I was hearing. Most are things I wouldn't argue with if somebody presented a better fitting phrase or set of words.

Specifically:

1 - Absolutely, this is really wierd. My initial instinct was that the sounds I turned in to "mal coeur" might actually be one word. A proper name of another town would be ideal. I don't suppose "Mantua" is called something else in France? That would be a good fit. Also, resolving the "au m" portion of it could turn the last two words in to "elle court" - she runs.

Perhaps it is "De Verona hommes elle court" meaning "From Verona men she runs." What do you think?

2 - The first time I heard it, I thought it was the word "vie" (live), but dropping all the low out and amping the voices, I *think* there is a terminal consonant on it that's very light. If "monter" could be used to mean something like "put up with" it might be changeable, but I think it makes more sense as is. Especially if we change the line we discussed above.

3 - It's a very strange sound, whatever it is. I'm certain I'm hearing "me refaire" on the beginning, and "l'intention" was the only thing I could come up with that would be even remotely correct there from my limited vocabulary. A word that would sound more accurate would be "le penchant" (same as English), but that would turn the combined line from "Again makes me want to bathe" to "Again gives me the penchant for bathing" which makes a bit less sense. I would not be at all surprised if I'm completely off on this line. I tried lots of stuff involving péché (sin) as well, but nothing fit. Anybody got a good suggestion on this one?

4 - Yes, niveau is generally pronounced the way you said. The context leads me to believe it's an intentional slurring of the word. The only words I could find that would normally be pronounced closer to what we hear are, so far as I can tell, completely innappropriate for the context.

5 - I hear a "T" on it myself, but either way, I agree there seems to be some sort of consonant on it that "repli" doesn't give. I didn't find anything else that worked there, so like other situations above, I went with what made the most sense of what I could locate.

Thanks for all the suggestions and questions. This song is by no means fully done, and my translation is far from definitive.

Originally Posted by CFHollister

Cooney, my French is extremely limited but is it possible that instead of "bottle of Coke" that it could be "capsule of Coca"... as in a pill of the drug with which to commit suicide... her only "shelter" from her tragic situation?

Just wondering.

I'd thought about that and tried to find anything pointing towards that usage. Logical points aside (Coca is a stimulant, not a downer, and is not what's used in the play) I couldn't find something to support it.

To do that, one would have to read something like "S'abri coca des capsulés."

Capsulé is not a noun however, and couldn't be used in that fashion. It's only the past tense of the verb capsuler. Capsuler, the verb, specifically is to put a cap on something. Capsule by itself can mean capsule, in the pharmacalogical sense, but it does not have the long A sound on the third syllable, it's a two syllable word. Result, "des capsulés" means nothing. Déscapsulé, on the other hand, means uncapped - an open bottle.

I tried looking up "encapsulate" but that's simply "mettre en capsule," (put in capsule) and wouldn't be conjugated in a way that changes the word capsule.

I'm not saying "Her shelter is an open bottle of Coke" makes sense, but I'm pretty sure it's what's being said.


----Edit----

On the other hand, the drug from the friar IS in a bottle... but why the choice to use "Coca" in this context? That would be begging for misunderstanding (Coke versus coca extract), and wouldn't be accurate. Maybe I'm too hung up on time period and play accuracy, and shouldn't worry about whether or not Coca was actually something they had and would have used like that?

[CFHollister]

Cool. Thanks for the thorough explanations Cooney. I wish I knew more about how poisons are made to see if there is any usage for Coca in the manufacture of poisons, possible in the period the Romeo and Juliette is set,

[Cooney]

Originally Posted by CFHollister

Cool. Thanks for the thorough explanations Cooney. I wish I knew more about how poisons are made to see if there is any usage for Coca in the manufacture of poisons, possible in the period the Romeo and Juliette is set,

There are two different bottles to worry about...

One is the bottle Friar Lawrence gives Juliet, which simply makes it look like she's dead for 42 hours, but which actually does no harm. That's what she used to escape her family.

The other is the poison, bought by Romeo from an apothecary, and used by Romeo to kill himself when he finds Juliet looking like she's dead, having not received Friar Lawrence's letter about the ruse. Juliet never imbibes the poison - that's the bottle about which she says "Oh churl, drunk all and left no happy drop to help me after?" before stabbing herself.

I think we're dealing with the knockout drug in the song, rather than the poison which she never consumes.

Grrr. The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced it *must* be talking about coca instead of Coke, but I've just got a hang up about it or something. I'm going to go ahead and change it to "bottle of coca" and worry about it later.

I'll also make the edit to the "De Verona" line per my response to Toc De Mac's enquiry above.

[Deepwaters]

Coca, whether in the meaning of cocaine or of Coca-Cola, is definitely an anachronism. Peru had just barely been conquered by the Spanish at the time when Shakespeare was writing the play, and it is very, very unlikely that he had any knowledge of the drug whatsoever. In any case, unprocessed coca leaf is quite harmless, and refined cocaine did not exist until the 19th century. The effects of cocaine are stimulant rather than soporific. So there is no way this could have been either Juliet's knockout drops or Romeo's lethal poison.

I think we may possibly have a rather cryptic cross-reference to drug use here, assuming you guys are transcribing this correctly.

[Cooney]

Originally Posted by Deepwaters

Coca, whether in the meaning of cocaine or of Coca-Cola, is definitely an anachronism. Peru had just barely been conquered by the Spanish at the time when Shakespeare was writing the play, and it is very, very unlikely that he had any knowledge of the drug whatsoever. In any case, unprocessed coca leaf is quite harmless, and refined cocaine did not exist until the 19th century. The effects of cocaine are stimulant rather than soporific. So there is no way this could have been either Juliet's knockout drops or Romeo's lethal poison.

I think we may possibly have a rather cryptic cross-reference to drug use here, assuming you guys are transcribing this correctly.

Actually, I found myself shocked when I did a quick check on Coca on Wikipedia, which is why I changed it.

Coca apparently arrived in a pre-cocaine form in Europe in the 1500's, and was in use as a local anesthetic for medicinal purposes. The leaves could also be chewed or smoked as a stimulant. Though it doesn't have a source linked on the statement, Wikipedia actually says some pipes from Shakespeare's residence have tested positive for coca products.

I had thought exactly the same thing you stated about when coca reached Europe, but what I'm seeing now is stuff stating it actually was temporally appropriate.

In the play it's only ever referred to as a "distilling liquor" and is obviously a powerful anesthetic. I still don't think Coca would have been used at that point in that fashion, but I've got a lot less reason for thinking that than I did before.